People say they don’t take sides when a couple separates but they always do

[thefourgp]

Just this really. I have been through a terrible break up earlier this year. He’s still being absolutely awful to me and the kids. Someone I thought was a neutral person (related to him but we’ve always been very friendly and they said they thought I’d made the right decision to end it) made it clear today they don’t think his behaviour has been that bad (it has, it really has). I’ve not spoken with this person much recently but I’m really sad and disappointed they think this way. They were so dismissive of all the terrible things he’s done and just said ‘well all men are like that, your standards are too high’. I know it’s awkward for those around them when a couple separates but if one party did all the things my ex has there’s no way I’d defend them or pass it off as him ‘just being a man’.

I would have said “ you’re so right I do have high moral standards and this conversation has made me realise that you too , can get fucked”

Lmao, I was just so surprised. I said, no my standards were too low for too long. Men should cook meals, clean the house, do homework with their children etc. I don’t want my children thinking it’s the norm for mum to do absolutely everything while Dad just goes to work and watches tv. They were saying ‘well he’s not a monster’ and ‘people do things when they’re angry they wouldn’t normally do and are ashamed of later’. I said I’m not ashamed of anything I’ve done since we separated. I thought this person understood me but I don’t any more. I think it would make their life easier if we all just pretend my ex hasn’t got emotional and mental health problems.

OP I am sorry that you have been hurt. She shouldn’t have voiced an opinion negating your feelings and experiences. She won’t really know what has happened and is probably just making assumptions. The rules of neutrality seem to have been broken.

However, I don’t understand why you were both talking about your ex. That’s not a subject for neutrals. She has shown in the past that she accepts her relative was in the wrong and that you made the right decisions. Now she wants to be neutral which is fair enough if she has to maintain a relationship with both of you and his wider family.

Therefore I have to wonder if she found herself in a conversation that was uncomfortable. Plus it’s not an opening statement and sounds defensive. Like she was being asked to demonstrate or voice her loyalty and it was a step to far. Tbh it sounds like a statement said in frustration and is a bad attempt at neutrality aimed at ending the conversation.

If she is a friend and has shown herself to be a good friend in the past, do you want to throw that away without considering whether you had crossed a boundary. Neutrals shouldn’t be dragged into positions of judgement. They are actively asking not to be. If they are put in that position be prepared for the consequences, they may not give you the reply you want.

It’s a bit complicated but we were discussing my ex because they (person A) are upset another family member (person B) has declined to go to a family wedding next week. Person B and I are very close and they know a lot of the in and outs of what’s happened. I was explaining that I never asked person B to get involved with the separation but they’ve been a great support and listener. I was surprised they’re not going to the wedding. They’ve told me they know my ex will try to provoke an argument with them at the wedding and they don’t want to cause a scene so they’d rather not go (I know him, a couple of drinks and he will do that but person A doesn’t think so because they don’t know him so well). Person A has been having a difficult time recently and was crying during our conversation. I think person A just wants everyone to get along which is never going to happen. Even before we separated there was a lot of tension between B and my ex and this has just made things worse.

I can’t sleep for thinking about this. Person a asked me not to confide in person b anymore about anything to do with my problems with my ex. I said okay because I was put on the spot and didn’t know what to say but I’m uncomfortable with that.

It's a hard one. Lots of people say they will remain neutral- but don't/can't. Because separating is rarely neautral- there's a catalys and reason and (usually) someone at fault. Is there a reason though you're relying on his family instead of your own and friends? It is going to cause divisions in his family and arguments- this person is no longer neutral- they've take your side, and are not attending a family event out of loyalty to you. So the family is now divided over the ex wife- whether you were right or not it's causing family issues, and I can understand why the other family member has asked you to not keep talking to the other family memeber. However you're all adults and entitled to talk to whoever you want, so ultimately they can't stop you.

I don't think you should have been talking about him to his relative at all really.

I think initially people just nod along in agreement and tell you what they think you want to hear. They are hardly going to tell you what they really think incase you kiss and make up and they are left in a really awkward position.

People are seldom neutral, they just don't want to voice their opinion so it's best not to put them in a position that forces their hand, you won't always like what you hear.

I've often wished my sister would dump her lazy ass DH, she deserves so much better. She however loves the very bones of him, sees no wrong in him and wouldn't change him for the world.

Which one of us is right?

@SherbetSorbet- difference is though- your sister hasn't asked for your opinion, or asked for your support. Person A (?) did from ex's family. Person B(?) doesn't believe OP should be giving out so many details of the marriage breakup as its coloured the other family members view. And you'd assume your sister would be on your side and supportive in a relationship breakup. I wouldn't have the same assumption about an Ex's family

He’s always had very little contact with his family. He spends as little time with them as he can. I bought all the birthday/Christmas presents, I’d make arrangements to see them and more often than not I’d have to go see them by myself with the kids because he’d refuse to go. I have mainly relied on my own family/friends but I’ve still kept in contact with most of his family because that’s always been the way of it and I don’t want the kids losing half their family. Everyone knows the separation was his fault even though he’d never admit it. As far as I’m aware no one has challenged him on this apart from person B who told him he should be paying maintenance and seeing the children when he’s meant to etc. He got defensive, started criticising person B and brought up other historic issues between them, person B started shouting and swearing at him and he threatened person B with violence (he would not actually punch them- he threatens stuff all the time to get people to back down in an argument).

I was pointing out that perspective is everything, we don't all see situations in the same way. The OP is being told her standards were too high, the OP says they were too low and doesn't understand how the relative can't see it from her POV

I agree that perspective is everything Sherbert. I haven’t confided or discussed what’s been happening at length with anyone in his family apart from person B. Therefore, they only hear his side of things and he doesn’t tell them about refusing to see the kids etc.

Also I never asked person B to challenge him. I said anything you say to him will probably make things worse. He had contacted them and they said they felt if they hadn’t have been honest about how they felt then they would have been condoning his behaviour.

You are right, people take sides. Neutral doesn’t really exist.

I think in a divorce or separation, you get to keep your own family. However....their family may choose you. Does that make sense? You can’t choose his family but his family can choose you?

I speak from experience - a family member was a LCB to his wife whom I thought was incredibly sweet. I am on her side all the way although I do try to be neutral and occasionally play devil’s advocate. She could never have ‘chosen’ to remain friends with me because of my family relationship to LCB. However, I was able to choose to support her.

That means Person B can choose you (and it sounds like they already have).

Very well put.

People always take sides. When you can accept that, you can move on.

I think sometimes they are just telling you what you want to hear when they have already decided who to support, and sometimes they really mean it but it becomes impossible to achieve.

i agree with pp who said you get to keep your family and he gets to keep his. Even if they love you, even if they think you're right and he's wrong, they will eventually drift to him - because blood is thicker than water, because they will hear his side of the story many times and become convinced, because it is easier for the sake of family relationships and events.

With friends it is more hurtful, often based on which of you they knew first, which of you they have always liked more, which of you slots better into their social life.

I lost touch with all of the neutral people eventually because in the end their neutrality annoyed me because he was so blatantly and obviously wrong, neutrality seemed like tacit support for his awful behaviour.

People are rarely neutral.

This has become too big a deal, too complicated and is causing you to lose perspective.

Ds2's closest friend, his split parents are very acrimonious. Every time I go to pick ds2 up they both tell me what's been going on, badly bad-mouthing the other. I've asked them not to. They can't seem to help it. I can't stand it.

Maybe it would actually help you, if you stopped speaking to both of them about this all, just for a bit, and confided in someone else?

I’m not sure discussing a marriage breakdown helps, endless discussing the same situation makes it worse, and it’s really unfair to discuss it with with mutual friends and relatives.

I think you’re right uncreative. “i agree with pp who said you get to keep your family and he gets to keep his. Even if they love you, even if they think you're right and he's wrong, they will eventually drift to him - because blood is thicker than water, because they will hear his side of the story many times and become convinced, because it is easier for the sake of family relationships and events.”

I totally agree that person B has clearly chosen me and it’s easier for everyone else to choose him even if they’re not close to him. I’m going to distance myself from person A because I do feel he is so blatantly and obviously wrong. I felt I had to defend myself yesterday and after all the shit he’s put me through I shouldn’t have to.

His family have a habit of ignoring any problems they have and the men have little involvement in family life. He’s still making life difficult for me and the kids because he’s so bitter and selfish. It’s a shame because I always really liked person A but I just have to accept they’re not my family anymore. X

If you want people to remain neutral and not take sides you cannot discuss the relationship or ex with them. They will either come out on your side or get defensive of ex. Some people will nod in agreement and say the right things but not mean it. They might be doing the exact same thing to ex.

Supporting you is not neutral, it's taking a side. Confiding in mutual friends or ex's relatives is making them takes sides. Confide in friends who have no vested interests if you want support. Anything else becomes enmeshed into the other person's own perspective of your ex along with their own relationships/boundaries/ideas acceptable behaviour/etc.

It's none of this person's business whatsoever.

I remember the shock of my ex's family members telling me my expectations were too high, that I should cut ex some slack (er, you can't slack off from nothing) and they were "staying out of it" when i begged them to talk some sense into ex about some very poor behaviour.

I gave them another chance to step up when ex started being abusive to our children, but again was told "that's what men do"

not in my family they don't.

Life's easier without the whole lot of them, but I do get what you're saying about not losing half the children's family.

It sounds like you don't want people to be neutral OP

I have been in both your position and Person A's. It's shit. I think Person B should have minded their own business, it wasn't his place to say anything.