When you already think bad things about yourself; and someone trusted tells you they think the same.

[Carterli]

I’m posting here as it’s about my general relationships with people, as well as with myself.

Like so many (most?) women, I suffer with very low self-esteem and self-worth. It’s horrible.
A while ago someone very close to me told me several very negative things that they saw as being my traits/personality/character.

(I no longer see that person for various reasons, but their comments carry enormous and emotionally significant weight.)

So I have taken these as absolute gospel because (a) I already thought I was a pretty crappy person anyway, so the comments just amplify/‘prove’ those existing thoughts; and (b) I don’t have any evidence that I am not those things. And also because (c) why would anyone – least of all this person - bother to make stuff up out of nowhere, so there must be some truth in it (insert adage about ‘speaking truth in anger’ type thing here)

This means these “allegations” have not only taken root, but absolutely flourished (festered?) and I can’t honestly see how not to have them in my head now. Before this happened I was able to quash them a bit, but now they are in big neon flashing letters all day long.

I am seeing a counsellor and she is fantastic, but every time she questions why I believe xyz about myself, I just get sucked back into my circular a, b and c above.

I am trying to undo a lifetime of feeling like this, so really I’m just wondering if I’ll ever come out the other side? And what if I don’t?

(Add onto all this some severe weight issues that I am working on, but it’s a physically slow process and I have done some permanent cosmetic damage to myself too)

I just feel crippled by it all; let alone the huge breach of trust I feel for the person who said these things to me.

(Regular poster, just NCd for this as obviously embarrassing)

Well it sounds what she said was to deliberately hurt you. I don’t know the dynamics of your relationship, but it’s not a kind thing to do. Lots of us have major flaws! But people like us inspite of them. Because an empathetic person will understand that we are made up of good and bad bits.
I fear you’ve put so much weight on what they’ve said because you believed them to be a good understanding person all this time, that’s not nessicerly the case, people can hide their own deep seated issues very well. And to Come out and attack you is their own issue, and not a lot to do with you.
Don’t put so much store in one persons point of view. A person that has got to know you and your vulnerability and then thrown it in your face. It smacks of trying to do the maximum damage in the laziest way. Which impo is a really shitty trait.

My Ex used to say that I was impossibly stubborn and so hard to deal with but my DH says I am adorably determined.

It is all about perspective and where people are in their own lives - possibly I did come across more stubborn with my ex as he was a complete useless wanker person but my DH doesn't find those traits of me annoying.

What I am trying to say in a round about way is that people change and we all have traits which can be seen differently by various people. No need to have just that one person tell you the problem as they won't be objective.

It is all about perspective and where people are in their own lives

This. You don't know why this person chose to say those things now. But I would bet on it being something that is going on with them in their life, not that came from you.
Even kind and good people can change, and in particular they can go through difficult times and breakdowns where they become quite different, unlike the person you've always known. Who's to say this isn't the case with this person? You are assuming that all the good things they've ever said are lies/ distortions, while this latest statement is the uncomfortable truth. But it could perfectly easily be the other way around - except that your low self esteem leads you to the first conclusion.

I would keep talking this through with your counsellor. You can come out the other side of it.

Oh and I like hedgehogs too. Lots of people do! Google the Hedgehog Preservation Society and you'll see.

The problem really isn’t what your friend said, it’s that you think them about yourself. Why do you expect your friend to love you more than you should love yourself? Why are your expectations of her behaviour towards you, greater than your behaviour towards yourself?

I’d be really interested to here your friend’s side of the story because im not sure that the prison with which you view things, is particularly helpful or accurate.

We all have flaws.Some people are jealous,others money obsessed,some argumentative ,people pleasers etc.
If you suspect you have faults and someone else reiterates this .Surely you need to take note ,look for further proof and if confirmed,look to eradicate these flaws as best you can.
Like I said we all have flaws

Hi all

I am overwhelmed!
I am not ignoring you all, I promise. I will respond soon - tomorrow.

Thanks for all the kindness, it feels almost tangible (it's made me cry!).

@AgentJohnson I'm failing to see why it's ok for you think the worst things about yourself but your Ex friend is terrible for repeating them.

• That's a very thought-provoking question. I don't think they were terrible for saying it. In fact because it chimed with what I thought I suppose it felt even truer?

@Move2WY You’re putting too much weight on their opinion of you and not enough on the little shoots you had started to grow.

• I guess over time I had learnt to love them and through knowing them, realised I respected their opinions and thoughts on many things. So it was natural for me to respect their thoughts on this as well. In a weird way it would seem awfully arrogant to suddenly dismiss their comment on this one issue for no tangible reason.

@Pluckedpencil I read somewhere the other day that we are attracted to friends who reflect how we see ourselves.

• Ironically they were very different to me, a real case of opposites attract - we bounced off each other beautifully for years ( so I thought)

@Bohemond I'd start with unpicking why you think that 'so many (most)' women suffer with low self esteem and low self worth. You are wrong.

• That was merely based on general observations of places like MN and also RL where so many women say they struggle with esteem and confidence.

@ImogenTubbs Forgive yourself

• You have no idea how big those little words seem to me. I have learnt how my entire sense of self is tied up with my childhood (nothing overtly bad, just circumstances a la Philip Larkin). I struggle immensely with feeling I have value, so to forgive myself? Makes me feel like I am over reaching for more than my "fair share" or something. (I'm writing replies based on what my gut instinct reaction says, so apologies if it doesn't make clear sense)

@Charles11 Why do you not want to say what they said?

• It's actually something my therapist pointed out to me - each time I voiced the words said, it was like being cut with an emotional knife all over again. I wound myself with the way I express the event, so I wanted to avoid giving them oxygen here.

@PurpleShepNeedsToGoToBed We have spent years hoping for a hedgehog

• Initially I thought of a snail, and what happens when you touch it's little eyestalks. That's actually maybe a better analogy given that it looks all strong and fine, but it's very fragile really.

@another20 Is there any physical evidence (actions by you) that demonstrate these flaws?

• I think there is. I was very aware that I displayed certain tendencies or habits that I disliked strongly, and I tried so hard to stop them/change them/overcome them. I really struggled with myself on one thing in particular and this person knew that (- not because I wanted them to "fix" me, but just through knowing me and spending time with me.)

@another20 Sounds like she was trying to help you through something and got impatient? Read up on drama triangle and co-dependancy - sounds like that is what she is?

• I have looked at this before, and yes it does seem to chime very strongly on my side (although not so much for them - but what do I know, given how it turned out!). They really did try to Rescue me, but at some point "secretly" switched into Persecutor. Maybe I shouldn't have been so weak and "allow" myself to be a Victim? (at the least it's all taught me to rely on myself and myself only in future! Fool me once, etc...)

@Monstrous Trying to address that will help as its part of “self care” and it says to yourself that you’re worth it.

• Funnily enough my counsellor and I were just discussing my "worthiness" (lack of) at our last session. She made me see that I have no problem treating anyone else to nice things, but when it comes to me, even buying a bloody starbucks is because I don't feel like i deserve it/prefer to scrooge away the £3 for some other purpose.

@IrenetheQuaint It sounds like maybe your friend spend ages being kind but then lost patience (was there a particular trigger?)

• No, it came totally out of the blue on my side. Had it been building up, I think the shock would have been lesser than the gut punch it was.

@Babdoc You ignore anything that validates your good qualities, and focus in like a laser on anything that reinforces your sad view of yourself as useless.

• The laser focus is me to a tee. Give me 10 raging compliments and a meh, and I will gnaw over the latter for days. I honestly (...as honest as my biased self can be) think that the flaws identified are quite key to being a person worth loving - they can be incredibly draining and boring to deal with. And I know that so acutely, but my mental wrestling with them was also a tedious affair to endure.

@something2say Life is therefore looking after you when you need it most.

• In a strangely timely occurring, a FB advert for a local event on all these self-help issues popped up on my timeline. I haven't' plucked up the courage to book it yet, but i think it;s as good a sign as any.

@lowtide Well it sounds what she said was to deliberately hurt you.

• Does it sound really bloody lame to say that I [still] don't think the intention was to hurt - it just doesn't sound like the person I knew! Could it have been (I ask myself/anyone?) their attempt to help me see my faults?

@Butterymuffin Even kind and good people can change, and in particular they can go through difficult times and breakdowns where they become quite different, unlike the person you've always known. Who's to say this isn't the case with this person?

• they do have some issues going on, and I was supporting them (genuinely) as best I could. But now I'll never know what happens.

@AgentJohnson Why do you expect your friend to love you more than you should love yourself?

• I never expected them to love me more at all. I guess the best I hoped for was they'd love me enough to rub along and they did for a long time. Then they didn't, and made it painfully clear they'd had enough.

@ferando81 If you suspect you have faults and someone else reiterates this .Surely you need to take note ,look for further proof and if confirmed,look to eradicate these flaws as best you can.

• I'm the one who knew about my flaws first! I have been desperately trying to fix them and they offered to help me because they wanted to. And I wanted to. But it's not easy to undo decades of being me, it's scary and confusing and very very hard.

Not very nice to hear that, I can understand why you are upset. Were they saying it to try and help you (in a weird way)? Do they know how upset you are?

Carterli this is very odd reading through your posts as almost exactly the same thing happened to me last month - someone I'd been friends with for 20 years; knew my secrets etc., and I think began to despise me for them. It was as if, in confiding in her, I'd shown her how weak I was and she went in for the kill. Really odd as she purports to be a life coach!

It was hurtful and embarrassing, I am not a quite and unassuming person I would normally have wiped the floor with her, but we were on holiday in a remote location so I had to grit my teeth for a few hours (thank god this happened on the penultimate/last day).

Think she thought she was "helping me to see my faults" but I don't see I should accept being spoken to like dirt just because someone is being clumsy in trying to help me. I've gone NC and moved on; after 20 years, my kids thought she was great too - thank god she didn't have this epiphany about what a really shit person I was in front of them eh?

" ... not a quiet and unassuming person ..."

I guess the best I hoped for was they'd love me enough to rub along and they did for a long time. Then they didn't, and made it painfully clear they'd had enough.

Is there any chance they could just fuck the fuck off and then fuck off some more? Sounds helpful to me!

Oh bless your heart OP. That sounds tough.

One thing that stood out to me was that you are having counselling. I think coaching might help as well as or instead of. Counselling is about looking backwards, and reflecting on things; coaching is more future focussed, and the right coach can help you with confidence strategies. I'm a women's confidence coach, you can just Google confidence coach and loads of results will appear (I'm not saying this in a self-promo way, as mine won't!). Find a person who appeals to you.

Does it sound really bloody lame to say that I [still] don't think the intention was to hurt

Nobody launches into a tirade of your perceived flaws with the intention of helping. If 5hat were the case, it would have been "Hey OP I see you're still really struggling with the whole [flaw] thing. I'm finding it hard to support you with this because although I've offered advice, it seems to go in one ear and out the other. I think it's best if we dont talk about this issue any more. "

That's what a friend would say. Someone who just goes for the kill is twisting the knife as much as possible in a desire to cause pain.

Get yourself on the Stately Homes board. Your parents have failed you massively in neglecting to love and support you in a way that would have filled you with confidence and self esteem.

OP - Sorry if my post seems off topic - I am purely going with the examples you cited above about this person whom said such crap things. (Sorry for the length too!)

Thing is, you aren't going about in ignorance, you were trying to learn, and this person knew as such and chose to put you down by insulting your intelligence/learning capabilities.
I'm just going with examples here too - so let's say it was about your weight that you earlier mentioned. This person, knowing how you feel and your shame, agreed to help and nurture you through it and be there for you. It hasn't gone as planned (you didn't lose enough weight, you didn't do as they said/you needed more time/you didn't go to the gym enough/some other crap) and through anger/spite they let it rip because they know it's going to get right into the heart of you and 'fester' as you so very eloquently put it in your post.

Thing is people will lose patience with others when they don't live up to what they expect - but that's THEIR problem, not yours. That's their lack of patience. They offered help but didn't realise the scope of what said help would entail. They felt let down and dealt with it by being spiteful. That was WRONG.
You are still going on and trying, they chose to pull out and leave nasty comments in their wake but you? You carried on 'hedgehogging', you'll get to where you need to get in your time. YOUR time.
If they can't accept it, let them go. It will always be your fight, whatever it is they got at you for I know it's something you are trying to change otherwise it wouldn't hurt so bad - they always get you where it hurts, because you let them have that knowledge and then it hurts even more when you feel the knife go through. But believe me, when you over come - and you will, the feeling of triumph over them will be so worth it. Your new feelings of being completely independent will be so, so worth it.

I hope in time they will admit they were wrong, tell you how far you have come and how proud they are - but don't hold out for hope my friend as in my experience it doesn't work out like that. Just be happy for yourself, fuck them - you can do it. You really can.
Good luck XxXxXx

It is possible to change the things you don't like about yourself. I am not saying you need to change, but if you want to, you can.

You're disconnected from the knowledge of your innate inner worth. This means you're judging yourself on characteristics and basing your worth on that. Your worth is nothing to do with that. When a baby is born we do not judge them by characteristics. We see clearly that they are worthy of love and respect and are infinitely valuable. and yet they have achieved nothing! We just sense their innate human worth.

You have the same human worth, and that is what your self esteem has to depend on. NOT by some 'standard' of characteristics that you have to reach.

I never had this sense of worth because it was never communicated to me in childhood. I did not get the 4 As that everyone needs to thrive - Affirmation, Affection, Approval and Acceptance. These are the basis for us accepting ourselves as our natural selves, rather than having to 'perform' to be worthy of love and acceptance.

Unfortunately there is no easy way to do this except to make a huge effort to reprogram all your thoughts and feelings about yourself. It's taken me about 6 years to do so. But now I can truly say I love and accept myself fully. The feeling is wonderful. Life becomes much smoother and more enjoyable.

I feel for you. You deserve love and affection and approval. In that emotional atmosphere you will flourish. Any important flaws will fade away. Any unimportant ones will cease to matter.

You are worthy. You are important. You are lovely.

I agree you must go back to your childhood. Not necessarily in a blame way but to find an explanation for your way of seeing things. I was determined to be seen as a fine upstanding person eg chair of the pta or whatever (due to childhood stuff about feeling ashamed and self esteem stuff). I have realised after many years I am introverted, not an organiser and self conscious. So I now aim at doing the opposite, ie keep a low profile, avoid responsibility for others , don't fall o er myself to do good works ( keep myself to myself) , and finally realise that I am happy and no one else's views count. People are self obsessed and really don't care what someone else does except maybe be spiteful because they want to feel better about themselves. Try to understand yourself better and why.

I agree with Alma - stop trying to understand others - but invest that headspace in trying understanding yourself through therapy.

You are obsessing and looking for an outcome that isn’t there (maybe that she has a moment of insight - comes running back to you and says “I am so sorry, none of that was true, you are amazing, I am a dick, lets be BFF”) - that’s never going to happen. You are not in dialogue with her so you will never know “the truth” you are just churning all this hurt around until you find some abstract rationale that you can settle with - that won’t be the truth either - it will just be some convoluted construct that you have patched together in your own head with the help of ML with you as the victim and her as the persecuter.

Just focus on you - she had told you she is not your friend, has not been for sometime - learn to accept that graciously and work on yourself.

Good luck!!

I can't say really what happened for me, I thought I was evil for a block of about 3 years (the event wasn't even very bad). One day I just kind of 'decided' to look at he world differently, and every time I thought a bad though, I shoved it and proactively decided to replace it with a good one. Eventually my mind went to the good ones more than the bad ones.
I say 'decided' because I had tried many times to try to stop thinking the thoughts to no avail.
Try reading 'the subtle art of not giving a fuck' and also read up on Pure O, OCD.
You can rewrite your head, and you can come out of the other side.

Also - it sometimes helps to know that the voice in our heads (which sounds SO MUCH LIKE US) is capable of lies, of synthetic thoughts.

We think because it's in our heads it must be pure truth (because we know when we're lying) but that's a fallacy