I really need some advice - DH and I going through a rocky patch - I hate the relationship he has with our DD's

[FoghornLeghorn]

We are currently living in difficult circumstances - living at MIL's while we found a new house, which we did but all fell through 2 weeks ago so back to square one. DH has been asking me for several weeks now what is wrong with e because I keep snapping at him and aparently getting the major arse over tiny things - I just answer nothing and skirt over the issue so I don't create an arguement that we can't have infront on MIL and DD's.

It all errupted this morning when DD1 (nearly 3) woke up at 5.30, DH was up as he gets up for work at this time and was pussy footing around trying to get DD back into bed, didn't even open her stair gate just stood there whispering for her to get back into bed (I was awake, as was MIL who was getting ready for work and so was DD2 (6months), therefore no need for the pointless whispering), DD was completely ignoring him and shouting no - so I got up and as soon as DD heard me she ran into her bed, I told her in a stern voice that if she didn't close her eyes and try to go back to sleep we wouldn't be able to go for a walk and to the park today like we had agreed yesterday. When I got back into bedroom DH said Calm down and stop shouting for god sake - I didn't shout or raise my voice once so this instantly got my back up and everything I have a problem with came boiling up.

When DH was on his way to work he text me to say sorry and he received both barrells as a reply (I know, I know, I shouldn't have said it in a text message but it was too late once i'd started) - Text message went along the lines of:
You aren't sorry - you think just because I don't go out to work that I can't possibly be as tired as you - you have no idea how hard it is trying to entertain a 3 year old and care for a 6 month old and it makes the whole day 10 x harder when DD1 gets up a the crack of dawn and is then miserable all day because she hasn't had enough sleep - You work 10 hour days but my hours are a hell of alot longer than that. You have no idea about the girls routines, you don't know what they eat or when they eat it, you don't know what nights are bath nights, you don't know when DD2 has her bottles etc and sitting down watching a film with DD1 when you get home from work doesn't make up for that - I'm sick of avoiding asking you to bath the girls or feed DD2 incase you get a strop on and start complaining how tired you are. I love you and I don't want to upset you but this is not enough.

Both barrells you will agree !

He has just called me now - like an hour later - to say sorry and he will try but u've got to understand it's not nice basically being told you aren't a good enough dad, you don't try hard enough and basically our kids don't need you - which is the way he interpretted my message.
I didn't say much, just said there isn't anything I can say when he tells me he is going to try harder, I don't expect him to do any housework or cooking, between MIL and I we sort it out, all I want is for him to have the fantastic relationship with our DD's that he should have.

He has since text me to say he is sorry if he has let me and DD's down but he promises to try harder.

I don't really know why I am posting to be perfectly honest - I know people will say if i'm not happy I should leave but that isn't an option, I am happy generally, our girls are happy and secure I just want him to bond with them properly. It's been tough being at MIL's for so long but it doesn't affect my relationship with DD's so I don't see why it should his.

Sorry that was much longer than I anticipated

Why don't you ask what your dh likes to do with the children? Mine enjoys play fighting with ours, or football, or tickling but hates bathtime. Horsing around in front of the TV and cooking breakfast are the times when they bond and I keep out of the way. I make dh do the bedtime stories because I have read too much about literacy and male role models but he hates reading so prefers to point to pictures in textbooks and explain physics. My dh is very different to me and has a totally different way of parenting. He really didn't do much with babies but is great now they are older.

The other thing to consider is that you have both just had a major disappointment when your house purchase fell through. This is bound to hurt but be careful that you don't let it feed into your row.

I am not sure I can add much - I think you have had some good advice. I don't think you can make any major decisions about relationships etc at the moment because of your living circumstances - I could not have done it for so long.

And I think you have to let Dad's do things their own way and let go. Get him to do bath and bed routine and go out and leave him to it. It wont be done your way but it will be done, nobody will come to any harm. Even if you just go out for a brisk walk or something.

I don't like the way DH does some things with our DC but just take a deep breath and leave them to it. DC like Dad to do stuff with them - makes a nice change from Mum - even it is the routine stuff - even if it is just a different voice nagging them to wash their hair!

i agree with every word noodle says
only solution

Would echo lots that has been said by others. Falling back into the role of "son of the house" could be part of it. The added stress of living with his mother which he knows isn't ideal.

But FWIW a LOT of dads don't do much hands-on bath-time type stuff. DH didn't either. In fact he didn;t change a nappy till DS was 20 months! And then we went though a stage where DS only wanted DH to wash his hair so he had to get a bit more involved but he didn't like it. Hated walking in to the house in the evening and having to wash DS's hair first thing. Wouldn't get into a major strop but would def raise eyes to heaven.

Wasn't too keen on bath-times when DS was younger either.

But they have a great relationship now.

Do you think you may be idealising the "Daddy comes home, baths children, life is like it is in the movies" type scenario? Could it be a reaction to the fact that life isn't like a movie i.e you don;t have your own home atm?

Maybe budabebe - I could be. My dad never did any of these things with me when my brothers and I were younger as he worked away for a lot of years and then he and my mum started up their own marketing business so we never really did family stuff - maybe that's what it's all about.
We ere always the kids who were playing out the front while mum and dad worked while other kids were going to the zoo, the park, swimming etc with their parents in school holidays.

God, I think this is all much deeper than I thought

I don't think it is deeper - I think when you get your own house lots will fall into place. You wont realise the stress you are under until it has lifted - moving house is one of lifes most stressful experiences and living with MIL can only make it worse. Hope you find house soon.

Never say MN is easy. You come on for a quick moan expecting lots of agreement that your DH isn't pulling his weight and end up in therapy!

I really think the financial/housing/business issues are clouding everything. Can you get out on your own for a night or an afternoon? you and DH that is. And sit and chat about your expectations and his expectations about your DDs and how you both react. Explain to him just WHY it is important that he is more hands-on. Ask him how it was when he was little - what he remembers. And as it sounds like it is important to you that he is involved in bathtime how about an agreement that he does it totally one or two nights a week?

Hi foghorn, I really sympathise. Ours are older now but I found toddler and baby combinations really hard to handle myself. I alternated between wanting DH to butt out cos he got it all wrong and to do more so I could rest. There's never an easy solution and the living situation must be tough all round. I just want to say 1) take a long view, this is the man you love and married for a good reason - don't make hasty decisions when you're all knackered/skint etc. 2) hang on to the thought that things will get easier when your kids are at school, can dress themselves etc. 3)remember you and DH are on the same side even if divided over kids/work balance. Cheesy but hope this helps. Good luck.

You have lots of good advice here - just one suggestion I would like to add. It sounds like one of your frustrations is the the essentially passive nature of the interaction between your DH and DD1 - you say they sit and watch TV together. One small thing you could do is get DH to go out and buy one or two board games that he thinks he and DD1 would enjoy playing together - ELC have a great selection for younger children and so do Orchard Toys - and make that their special time together. I got DH into doing this and all my three have really enjoyed it.
FWIW I found having my second baby really hard because DH was working long hours and didn't really see her at all, and when he was around he needed to concentrate on DD1 who was missing her daddy. I worried that DD2 would never have the same relationship with her daddy. But now DD2 is 7 and DD3 is 4 and they all have a brilliant relationship with him. Things change and you both sound like very loving parents who are under a LOT of stress atm. Go easy on yourselves - you are both trying to be the best mum and dad you can and that's what counts.

FL, it doesn't sound that deep to me, really. You're in a temporary and immensely stressful situation, so trying to make fundamental changes in your family's interactions with each other is really a call too far until your home life has stabilised.

Once you're all happily ensconced in your new home you can gently set up scenarios where your dh gets to spend bits of quality time with either or both of your dcs, and hopefully he will gradually build up a more intimate relationship with them (though it will still be different from the one you have with them).

It sounds as if you have a fundamentally strong relationship that is under enormous pressure atm. FWIW our situation has been similar recently (house move, children in schools and nursery three miles apart in opposite direction, no time for me to work, aaaargh) and I am definitely not at my most charming and reasonable atm. In fact I nearly put dh out by the side of the road between Oban and Crianlarich last week in the course of a screaming row (yes, in the car, infront of the children ) caused by me refusing to drive a 50 mile detour so that he could spend an hour in the Black Watch Museum in Perth.

Ladies, you be the judges: WIBU (Was I being Unreasonable)?

Thanks everyone - I do feel slightly better about it all now - I think alot of things boiled up and then I didn't know what the problem really was/is and what I was just getting caught up in.

We have the house to ourselves on Friday's so possibly the best day for us to have this arguement. I will sit DH down tonight and hopefully we can understand where each other is coming from

Think 'discussion' rather than 'argument', FL. And remember it is really hard to keep a sense of perspective while your life and housing situation is up in the air, so cut yourself and him some slack.

Hope it all goes well -- he sounds as if he's really trying, and maybe just needs encouraging in the right direction.

frogs - the Oban-Crianlarich road always does it for us too!!! And you can never find a space to let the kids pee either!

I'm from Perth - the Black Watch Museum is not that good - certainly not worth a 50 mile round trip.

Do you live on the west coast?

Er no, we live in London. Had just had a fab week on Mull. I'd been muttering all week that I couldn't see how Perth was en route from Oban to Melrose, but dh had steadfastly refused to take the hint, so it all came to something of a head. I'm not sure what got into him -- he can be a bit obsessive, but it's unlike him to be truly vile.

He did actually apologise, several times and very sincerely (also pretty rare), and offered to buy me an ice cream in the Green Welly Stop at Tyndrum, but I was still sulking.

Ooh I love Mull. I even love the road from Crianlarich to Oban because it's on the way. Unless we're late for the ferry and then there is always some .....slow person.... in the way . Not so keen on the Oban to Crianlarich road though especially when you think of the loooong and horrible drive ahead.

One thing I have learned throguh the very difficult times dh and I went through is that if you are upset about something you really really should say so in the first place. Never answer "nothing" if the other person says "what's wrong". You will bottle your feelings and turn into a smouldering volcano, and they will feel hurt/confused and that you don't care/like them anymore, because let's face it it will be very obvious that there is non "nothing" wrong! It is really difficult, but you need to learn to just say why you are upset by something right at the beginning. Your partner needs to learn to be able to listen when you say what's upsetting you. Oh, and you also need to be able to listen to what they say back too. I do honestly think that is the only way that you can make rrelationships work when times are tough. Bacause when you are stressed (and it sounds like you are both having a very difficult time, stressful/unrewarding work, not where you want to live and looking after babies/toddlers) you will get ratty, unpleasant and really not very nice to live with (and that probably is true for all five of you - including to some degree your MIL and children). On the plus side if you work through this difficult time you probably will have a very strong relationship able to cope with pretty much everything. When you have your conversation please think of it as that - not an argument where you say nasty things to each other and let it all out (although that can be quite cathatric, it's likely to be destructive too), but as the space for each of you to tell the other person how you feel and for you then both to come up with some solutions. I think that the rota concept is probably a good one here, just about finding some time when you are both at home when your dh is in charge -and you do have to be able to switch off, and let him do his thing, even if you don't think it's the best way. My dh has watched much TV with the children, and for a long time dd/ds and him would enjoy talking about Balamory, or Edd, Ed and Eddy or other tripe that they enjoyed together - the point was that they really did bond, I don't think it really matters over what, really I don't.

I didn't mean arguement as in i wanted to have an arguement tonight, I meant the arguement we had this morning.
When he cam home from work I was sorting out garage (this is where all of our worldly possessions are at present), he came inside and got a snakc then came straight out to help me - he has now gone off to do a private job. He does work hard and is certainly trying.

We have agreed to sit down with bottle of wine and chat tonight

Sounds positive, FL.

It all sounds like a pretyt normal issue in different styles of parenting and expectations intensified by the stress of not living under your own roof.

Have you always had certain expectations of what he should be like as a dad and how his interaction should be with your children? If so, this could have led him over time to not even want to try, and then this further pulling back causes you to be more frustrated with it.

Other people will have different relationships than you with your children, that includes your DH. I think it would help to encourage him in what he does do so he does more in that regard, and also for him to do more things at home so you feel more like encouraging him than being frustrated.

I don't know how young your children are, but honestly, my DH didn't really have that fatherly connection with DS until close to three and now he's three it just keeps getting better and better. Though he obviously loved DS he did things more out of duty than enjoyment, now they have a right laugh at bath time and doing things together especially because ds can have a good conversation. I knew dh would probably be like that going in and he was so it didn't bother me. I knew the relationship between them would come.

My dh is also one who doesn't think to do something unless he's asked. So I just ask, with no judgment. I've learned it's futile to just expect it, he's not going to change, and also he's not a mind reader and can't work out what I want if I sulk or bang things around. Not that I am suggesting you do that! But I used to do that!

Good luck with your chat, if he is trying that is fab, you have a good one there!

good luck fl. i'd just spill my guts and tell him exactly how you feel. tell him everything. then you can work through it together. you don't need to have worked out exactly what the problem is.

i'm glad he's trying

He sounds like he is trying to see your point of view though and he sounds very caring and sensitive. I think you are just under an immense amount of stress. Living with other people is an unreal environment I've done it myself. could be a combination of him taking the easy way out and vegging out when he comes home from work and you perhaps expecting a little bit too much? dh annoys me sometimes when he comes home from work and goes straight upstairs to get changed (for 15 mins) then manouvres it so I do the bath whilst he is on the lap top having a beer. they he says "you can put them to bed can't you", especially if I've been out to work that day just like him. But he's not normally like that he does pitch in usually. we have been through rocky patches but I think under times of stress you need to cut each other a bit of slack

He is trying really hard today
We had a good chat and think we both understand each others feeling and thoughts alot better now.