My husband thinks I am his chattel

[Gojustgo]

He really does. I am desperately unhappy. I have told him this. I mean brink of nervous breakdown/ suicide/ homicide unhappy. I can't stand being in his presence anymore. I can't stand banging my head against a brick wall with him anymore. I can't stand not existing and I don't exist to him. I really am going mad. He has told me I am mad. And evil.
He says I have to stay as he doesn't want to see less of his kids if I leave with them. When I said I was going to leave he threatened to ask our five year old if he wanted to see less of his Daddy.
Despite the fact that us staying in this toxic atmosphere is clearly bad for our kids, he says I just need to 'be happy' to solve this problem.
Problem is I have no job and no family and I am now scared of what he will do if I do leave. Not physically, but in terms of refusing any financial support or trying to keep the children. I wouldn't want them to stay with him. He loves them but he is completely unable to understand anyone else or put anyone else before himself.
I don't know what to do.

Please call womens aid 0800 2000 247

Contact women's aid if you're in the UK. You also need to look into getting a job and finding a way towards financial independence.

Your son deserves a happy mum.

While you are with him...start building up a social life away from him. You need something to bring you a bit of happiness and to look forward to.

Another idea is to not engage with him unless on necessary routine matters. Maintain a civil politeness and it's a possibility he won't want this environment. A split is not for him to decide... it's for you.

The alternative of suicide or homicide aren't worth it.

Look for online support groups in your local area. You said homicide...which is more an American term... useful support is out there.

Keep posting and I'm sure others eill come along with helpful advice.

I know I need to keep communication to a minimum. I find it hard as he pushes my buttons. I had thought we could maybe live separately together whilst I got myself sorted but I don't think I can. I really can't stand being with him. His latest thing is making up stories to make me look evil and shit. Our toddler is going through a phase of yelling ' go away!' at people. He does it to my husband. Husband now is accusing me of 'turning toddler against him' WTF. He came into the room I was in with my five year old and declared, ' I know you think I don't love my son' which obviously really upset DS who started crying and saying ' No Mummy, Daddy does love me! He does'. I'm sick of him making up crap about me to justify his own shitty behaviour. The thing is, the madder I get ( and I do think I am getting quite mad) the easier it is for him to justify that he is the good guy and victim and I am the loon. But if I leave how can I ever afford to retrain to get a job? I'd have to pay for retraining and childcare.

I am in UK by the way.

I'd do as has been suggested, maintain a polite, detached, civilised persona and train yourself not to react, not to explode when he pushes your buttons but to calmly walk away and maintain your dignity. Whilst your perfecting this technique, you need to get those ducks in a row and make a plan for the future. Women's Aid can offer an anonymous shelter for you and the children if you are as desperate as you seem to be and that might be the best option...but its worth looking at any work you can get and any funded child care you can access while you plan your escape. A relative of mine with two young school aged children escaped by finding a live-in housekeeping job in Kent. She's still there twenty years later.
There's always a way OP so don't despair. You can move forward from this situation but you have to be strong and you have to have the courage and determination to make it happen.

Contact your local Women's Aid on Monday morning. Tell them what you've said here. Please don't delay.

Also do the Freedom Programme asap. This will really help you. Contact your local group asap.

You need to get the ball rolling. Abusers are all the same, surprisingly, and eg Women's Aid have seen it all and know all the strategies and the law. They know how best to approach this.

First off, he will NEVER have a revelation that the way he behaves is off. Never. So stop trying to convince him or get his validation or permission - he will never give it.

The best way to go about this is to go underground. Women's Aid will work with you on a strategy to get the best possible outcome for you and your children. MN talk often of 'getting your ducks in a row' which means doing all the research and preparation before leaving (intact with your children - yay!).

You are eligible for benefits, Women's Aid will guide you through the process. But you have to get the process started by contacting them as soon as possible. They won't force you or push you. They are very experienced.

Is he tech savvy? You know how to cover your tracks online, yes?

You can do this. Many, many of us have. Do it for your kids

Thanks everyone. I have felt so alone. You are right about him never having a revelation that the way he behaves is off. I have tried for ten years to get through to him. Can someone be emotionally abusive without meaning to be? Because that seems to be him. He tells me he is a good husband, that there are men much worse than him, that I can't expect him to be perfect. I don't want perfection. I just want to be seen as a human being of equal worth and value who is allowed a voice and choices. There are men worse than him but to tbh, I don't think many who aren't doing something they could be arrested for. I'll phone women's aid. I might look into the housekeeping job actually. I'm terrified of what he will tell the kids though. I had naively thought a few months ago that I could tell him advance I was leaving, but it is pretty obvious now that I can't. He will go apeshit and I am terrified of what he will be telling the kids. I know my five year old will blame me for leaving and its obvious now that husband will not keep him mouth shut for the DS's sake.
Thanks for the tip about Tech, I am rubbish at it adn he is good. And the freedom programme. Thanks everyone. I really can't believe my life has turned out like this. I can't believe he has turned out like this. I used to really love him. It's taken me a long long time to realise what he is really like. I can't believe I let him coerce me into a place of dependency on him. I 've been such a fool. I really hope I can turns things around now. I've learnt a lot about myself.

Can someone be emotionally abusive without meaning to be?

Yes. Because, as you say, he just doesn't believe you are a person of equal worth. And no matter how he behaves - I'm sure he's capable of acting remorseful, willing to change, quite charming, if he chooses to - that underlying belief will still be there. It usually takes years and lots of hard work to change a belief like that. But he believes it's true so why would he want to change? No wonder he thinks you should change: he believes you have the problem, with this odd expectation of equality...

Good luck. The Freedom Programme really will help you understand it and answer all these questions you have.

he threatened to ask our five year old if he wanted to see less of his Daddy

I'm sorry, but he doesn't love his children if he's doing this. They're just tools for him to use to get what he wants.

Can someone be emotionally abusive without meaning to be?

He denies he's abusive, refuses to change, refuses to acknowledge his behaviour is unreasonable, etc etc, not because he is being inadvertently abusive, but because he is being deliberately abusive and this is exactly how he wants things. He has no interest in changing, that's why he's never responded to your attempts to reason with him.

If he wasn't doing it on purpose you would have been able to talk him round. It's the fact he refuses to change (and all the rest) that tells you he's doing it on purpose. He has it justified to himself and he feels entitled to behave like this. Freedom Programme will help you untangle all this though.

As for leaving, I'm really glad you've realised you need to do so without warning him. Be as honest with the children as you can be. It's important they hear from you that "the way daddy is behaving is not ok and that's why we won't be living together anymore, but I love you all very much and I'm not going anywhere".

Please don't be tempted to give them excuses about how "daddy doesn't realise, daddy doesn't mean it, mummy makes daddy angry" etc. It will be much more upsetting and confusing if you do this, especially as they presumably know they're not allowed to behave the way he does. It would also leave the door open for him to manipulate them if you approached it that way.

They need a child appropriate version of the absolute truth of what's going on and the reason for it, that acknowleges his behaviour is wrong and unacceptable without minimising or excusing it. They most likely will have picked up on far more than you realise, and it will leave them confused if you make out like it's normal or somehow acceptable. Definitely don't say anything about you making him mad or sad or whatever, because that plants the idea this is your fault instead of his. Make sure it is all about his behaviour, not yours.

I don't doubt there will be some level of upset, but that will be about the change. You can give them certainty and security and honesty, and that will help. When they're older they will understand and be glad you were able to leave for them and that you protected them by telling them the truth.

I'm basing this on the info in Freedom, discussions with other survivors, etc, as well as my experience of being the child told "daddy doesn't realise" who grew up to think it was normal to be hurt and frightened by the people who said they loved you.

By the way, what he's doing is coercive control, so it's already something he could be arrested for.

You can absolutely turn this around. You really can.

*he threatened to ask our five year old if he wanted to see less of his Daddy

I'm sorry, but he doesn't love his children if he's doing this. They're just tools for him to use to get what he wants.*

Yes, this really upset and shocked me. He was so fucking smug and smiling about it when I was appalled and saying, 'You can't do that!
You can't put that on him'. He just smiled and was ' Oh no, I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm just asking the question.' You could tell he thought he had the upper ground with that to wave over me. Git.

In the UK we have benefits and we have CMS, even if you have to leave via a refuge there is support out there. He has you so worn down you cannot see how badly he is treating you

Just thinking about one of the incidents you described...

If your 5yo, after you leave, ever asks you if this is because you think daddy doesn't love him, you can be honest with him.

"I know that daddy loves you, but sometimes when he's angry daddy tells lies to try and upset people. It's not ok to tell lies to upset people."

Obviously in your own words. I can imagine his reaction of "he does! He does!" Might have been as much fear of not being loved, as anger at you. It would have been very literal to him as he isn't old enough to be able to see or imagine the bigger picture. The only way they have to understand things is "something bad happened, it must be my fault" unless we tell them otherwise.

If you end up with anxious follow up questions about "if I get angry or if I make a mistake or I tell a lie will I have to go and live somewhere else" to any of your explanation just provide reassurance that they're not going anywhere, they're always going to live with you, none of this is their fault, etc etc. I'm sure you don't need me telling you that though!

It's going to be difficult conversations either way, but at least with honesty you have the opportunity to give them clear, firm boundaries and stop them from continuing the cycle of abuse in their own lives as they grow up or copying his behaviour. Easier in the long run.

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting before that you should start telling the children he doesn't love them, that was just my observation that an abusive parent doesn't love anybody but themselves, certainly not anybody they're trying to use as a weapon. But it's not going to help any child to be told that.

he sounds hideous OP

Git indeed. (You're more polite than me.)

On the plus side, if you ever wobble or have doubts about whether you're doing he right thing, he's supplied you with strong doubt-squashing material there!

On the plus side, if you ever wobble or have doubts about whether you're doing he right thing, he's supplied you with strong doubt-squashing material there!

He sure did.

Thanks everyone. I feel a bit more hopeful about making a plan to leave. Its destroying me, and its grotesquely unfair on the kids to raise them in this atmosphere. Its hard to understand why husband can't see this. Well, I know the answer to that, its because I just need to realise he loves me, and 'get happy'.