How do I say enough?

[Timeforcalm]

Not a DP or DH thread, but about my mum instead.
Background:
Eldest of a number of siblings with large age gaps. Second eldest sibling was always difficult and caused a lot of trouble due to behaviour - stealing, accusations of rape towards people, accusations of abuse towards people (all proven to be untrue). Totally off the rails. As such, the rest of us were left to basically raise and parent ourselves and each other because mum was too busy supporting and caring for second eldest. Dad worked long shifts and even when Home was emotionally absent.
No matter what said sibling did, it was alright because they were struggling with unmentioned troubles and it became a bit of a circle. Money was stolen from family, shoplifting arrests, pregnancy scares, eventual pregnancy. The younger siblings suffered a great deal as second eldest sibling would sometimes try to physically fight them. All siblings now live with feelings of inadequacy and worthlessness as they were never looked after, emotionally or physically. Mum checked out, only interest was second eldest sibling and the rest of us were left to fend for ourselves. I looked after younger kids but eventually began to struggle and moved countries. Mum and second eldest sibling very much alike in their need for constant drama to prop them up - they seemed to enjoy the fighting and the upset and so it never ended.

Second eldest sibling now has a few kids. The first our mum raised for her as she didn’t want to parent once the baby was born. She wanted to sleep, go out and get drunk and do drugs, anything but be there for baby. Mum raised child until approx 4, then second eldest sibling began to push for a council house and benefits and so took the child back. Mum distraught as she lost her ‘child’.

Second eldest then got pregnant and aborted a few other pregnancies with different men but decided to continue with one and had another child. Moved a man in who was not father of this child but said he wanted to date her through pregnancy.

Mum and second eldest sibling then had a massive falling out. Mum had been full time childcare to sibling’s kids even though she had health issues and meant she should be resting. Mum was kept away from kids and accusations of childhood abuse were made. Second eldest sibling was treated far better than the rest of us and seemed to have taken on the story that the rest of us had to tell to throw back at her. Mum got herself so stressed and wound up about not seeing ‘her kids’ that she suffered a massive stroke.

Mum now in really ill health. All she does is talk about second eldest sibling. This sibling has sent her horrifically abusive messages, caused fights and arguments and stops her seeing the kids at a whim when she’s out of work. She sometimes gets jobs and then lets mum full time care for the kids despite still abusing her via text or phone calls. Mum accepts all this.

Mum has now had her second stroke. Her blood pressure and heart rate are sky high and she’s what the doctors are calling a ticking time bomb on her way to the next stroke. Sibling has got a job and she’s taken on childcare again. Dad is retired now and he cares for mum, kids and mum’s nine dogs and is run ragged. There is still a sibling at home who is at high school.

Sorry for long explanation but it sort of won’t make sense without!

So now - I have my own family and am due another baby. Pregnancy has been extremely difficult and mum wants to visit to help once baby is born. She can barely walk at this point, can not look after herself in any way and, as has happened with birth of my first, sibling will be so jealous of the visit that she will spend the entire trip texting mum to say this proves how little mum cares about her grandchildren and she’s not seeing them anymore on her return; and mum will then spend the whole trip crying about it, needing comfort and being looked after.

How do I tell someone who is that ill, physically and emotionally, that I can’t cope with any of this anymore? Childhood resentment is not a place I want to visit anymore and I can not tell my mum anymore that she needs to put herself first and stop bending over backwards for sibling, that she needs to downsize on her dogs and just rest if she ever wants to get better. The idea that I’m going to have to go through the tidal wave of toxic drama instigated by sibling and continued by mum is terrifying me. She will undoubtedly go to pieces if I ask her not to visit and will make me feel awful but I simply can not cope with it all again. I left to get away from it all - and she’s bringing it back into my life. She also wants to bring a load of her dogs on the visit who are snappy and not house trained and that idea alone is ridiculous.

What do I do? How do I deal with the guilt of saying enough is enough?

Gosh this is terrible! You will never ever change these people. Back right off.

It should not be difficult for an adult to understand ‘please don’t discuss my sister when you are with me’ I’m assuming you have said that and she has ignored you.

I would honestly go no contact on the basis that you are preserving your mental health!

Your sister sounds like she has some sort of undiagnosed mental health condition.

And nine bloody dogs! Sounds like chaos

oh Lord

First off, someone report your sibling to Social Services. Those poor kids with a mother like that - horrendous. As you know from your own experience with your mum! Is sibling 'worse' than your mum, or the same? Stupid question but, goodness, they are both very erm disordered..

Your mum has your dad and the dogs . She's not alone (even if she were alone you can still refuse her entry but, thankfully, she isn't alone). Use the excuse of the dogs - you can't have dogs shitting etc in your house.

The hard thing is you're going to have to face that she may indeed die of a massive stroke, or whatever, seemingly due to your actions/inaction. I have had to come to terms with this with my own (dear) mum who is hopelessly codependent etc. She doesn't know she's so disordered, and I do my best, but ultimately I have to take care of myself and my mental health above hers. It's her or you.

Lie. Lie your head off. It's the only way ime

I think you need to tell your Mum that she is too ill to help so best stay put and you will visit ASAP.

I think you can refuse on practical grounds - the dogs are not safe around a baby and she cannot physically help at this time and you won’t be able to tend to her needs.

If your sister got jealous last time and you had to spend your time comforting your mind ther you could also point that out and that you are not I a position to deal with it at this time.

Thank you for your responses, I really do appreciate it.

It is total chaos. The dogs, a high school aged sibling who struggles with ADHD and autism. Another of my siblings was diagnosed similarly, same for mum. Dad is autistic. Problem sibling has been diagnosed with a personality disorder and although I know they struggle they do play up to it a lot. I doubt I’m neurologically sound, I’ve suffered awful depression and PND after my first was born, but I don’t find any cause to worry otherwise. I think, in all seriousness, that it’s living in the chaos that makes it all so bad. It’s such an intense environment of shouting, crying and constant upset and I’ve thrived away from it.

I would say that my mum and sibling are too alike and that’s why they are stuck in this cycle. It’s like my mum is playing up obsession with the kids so she has a reason to keep fighting and therefore continue the drama. Neither of them will back down and t impacts on everyone. Mum has no idea that young high school sibling for example is self harming and has a boyfriend who she met online, but she could give you absolute details of what my siblings kids had for lunch, what they wore two weeks ago on Thursday. It’s just all a total fuck up.

I think you’ve touched on my worry - that mum will kill herself over the stress I add and I won’t be able to live with the guilt of it. I know I shouldn’t but I do really bloody care.

Gosh. There are no easy answers to this.

My understanding of your closing question is that you want to be able to step back from them all? Is that right?

I can't tell you what to do, but if this were me I'd be seriously considering going "no contact" to protect myself. What follows is my perspective on what you've shared, and things that have helped me. Only you know what path is right for you. Take from this what is useful.

You've done your best, but you can't fix their problems and you very clearly cannot change their choices as to how to behave. If you had that power things would not be looking like this right now.

I've had to walk away from immediate family for different but not entirely unrelated reasons to yours. It was tough, I felt guilty and heartbroken, but I also recognised it was necessary and that it was time my life mattered enough to be the one I protected.

You feel guilty because you're a caring person, and we grow up in a society filled with messages about family coming first and sticking with them no matter what. Except when it's family causing you harm and ignoring your every attempt to reduce or mitigate that harm, then sometimes we have no choice but to walk away.

You can only be clear, firm, and short in your explanation. Keep it simple. There is no further discussion to be entered into, so don't. Inform them, walk away. You'll never get the reaction you'd hope for, and no matter how hard you try you'll never be able to talk them round to understand your position. (In my case, I provided a probably two sentence statement of fact as to what I had decided to do, and did not engage further.)

The prospect of being that short and firm, without protracted discussion might feel unkind when you're contemplating it, but afterwards it is easier to see why it was necessary. Discussion will delay the inevitable (or risk you being steamrolled), give them an opportunity to manipulate and pressure you, and ultimately cause you more stress and distress. If you start debating it will also confuse matters and risk losing the certainty you need.

In the aftermath, and when you're searching for the strength to make your decision, you need to be kind to yourself. Somebody in this scenario should be doing that, so make it you.

All I can suggest is that if you decide to walk away entirely you are clear with yourself on why - that you've done everything you could for them, but you and your DC need to be protected and cared for now. Write it down and remind yourself. It is time your needs came first. Your life is precious. You don't exist just to meet other people's needs. Yours matter.

If you maintain contact, you need to be assertive with saying no. Setting boundaries and sticking to them. In that scenario, all of the above would still apply.

Clearly, you would not have chosen any of this. None of this is what you want or would have wished for. Who on earth would? Setting boundaries, reducing contact, or walking away entirely are not things you are doing to them, they are things they have done to you. They have taken away the chance for you to make any other choices and still be able to protect yourself.

You are not in the wrong here. You've done all you can. You and your growing family deserve to be able to have a happy, safe, stable life.

Good luck and take care.

It's not you adding stress to her, it's you responding to the stress she brought to you in order to protect yourself and your baby.

It shines through what a kind and caring person you are, as well as how incredibly strong and determined you must be to have survived all this and still have managed to go out and build a different life for yourself.

Can you extend some of the compassion you have for others to yourself?

I can't imagine you would tell a friend in the shoes you are that she would hold the responsibility you've pinned on yourself in the penultimate line of your update. I certainly don't look at your situation that way.

I was about to post and then I read Gruffalina's post which said all I was going to say, and so powerfully. So I'll just highlight the most important part of her post again:

It shines through what a kind and caring person you are, as well as how incredibly strong and determined you must be to have survived all this and still have managed to go out and build a different life for yourself.

Can you extend some of the compassion you have for others to yourself?

Oh, and meant to say that it doesn't sound unlikely that your DM will die of the effects of her lifestyle. This is in no way your responsibility, let alone your fault.

I understand that you feel guilty but it you re-read everything you've written you'll see that you have absolutely no control over your DM, so can't be accountable for her.

It's true that people seem to have a harder time grieving for DPs when the relationship has been bad, but you'll have to cross that bridge when you come to it.

Thank you again for your lovely posts. It really does help put things into perspective - or at least try and begin to.
I think what I am most concerned about is that mum is very manipulative in the way she approaches things. I tried to speak frankly with her a couple of days ago and she flew into an apology about how we have all been affected by my other sibling and how she wishes she had known how to do better and it just puts everything back on us. The remorse doesn’t feel real, in fact I know it isn’t - it’s a woe is me act so that she can be upset rather than take steps to actually make it right now. Such a mess.
I do accept that she will probably kill herself over all of this and that does really upset me as she will pass without her children feeling important or wanted by her. She will leave behind such an awful legacy and none of us will ever get peace with that, I don’t think.

I do think I need to protect myself though, and certainly my kids. My DH is extremely supportive and has said much the same as the rest of you, it’s just so hard to distance yourself from pain that goes so deep, and also to end this cycle of desperately needing and seeking attention and approval that just isn’t there.

Glad to hear our support has helped and far more importantly that your DH is your rock and reassurance.

Oddly enough, there was a thread here recently that in some ways could almost be coming from your DM. The OP was unwilling to look at any contribution she may have made to her family's dysfunction. The thread did not go well.

I wish I had seen that thread. Sometimes it’s nice to see things from the other side.

I plucked up the courage and said that I didn’t think a visit was appropriate for the reasons of her health, the dogs, sibling and her kids, and the inevitable upset and drama it would cause. Needless to say it didn’t go well. I’ve left it for now and feel extremely guilty but what can I do?