How do you find the strength to leave

[mamahanji]

I don't want to type everything out unless I have to as it's so exhausting and depressing to catalogue the disaster.

I'll start off by saying that when I see people talk about their partners how respectful and how their partners would never call them names or say such awful things. And it never feels real. But not I'm wondering if it isnt normal to be in a relationship where there isn't name calling and insults and regular break up rows and such venom.

We have some really good times. I love our family life. I love how much fun we can have. I would say the majority is good, but it feels like the important stuff is always bad.

I do love my partner. I love him a lot. He makes me laugh, he cares about me, he supports us and I know he loves me a lot. But his actions don't show it.

When we argue, I honestly think he hates me. I don't know how you can treat someone that way unless you thought they were scum.

He has done some pretty awful things in the 5 years we have been together, and I've not treated him like scum. I've forgiven him and helped him and tried to support him.

I'm not saying I'm perfect, far from it. And yh I can be difficult at times. But I honestly hand on heart do not think I treat him badly. I think I try and be considerate and respectful. And sometimes I think I'm either a fucking doormat mug or a bloody saint.

I don't know how I can carry on like this. I have been called a useless cunt and told I've been put in my place when trying to explain why I'm prioritising certain housework over other stuff. If I read someone else's partner saying that I would scream 'controlling abusive' but why can't I accept that his behaviour is abusive and I should leave.

How the hell do I find the strength and self respect to be a grown up and end this stupid little dance we are constantly doing.

It's incredibly hard, but imagine spending the rest of your life like this. Surely that is harder than getting out

I spent some time this week talking to a friend who is exactly in this situation. It's so difficult when you are constantly ground down by the day to day life to thing of how to get out. But I know she will do it one day, but I agree finding the strength to do it is hard, especially where children are concerned.

Because eventually you cant take it anymore.

My stbx is as you describe. Please, please read Pat Cravens 'Living with the Dominator'.

They know what they are doing. They keep us unbalanced. When they think theyve pushed us a bit far they are nice again. For a bit.

I knew i had to leave so my children didnt learn to treat me like crap.

Its not easy but none of it is worse than accepting that bad behaviour.

We have two young children and when we are all together as a family things are amazing.

But when the kids are in bed, we either sit and ignore each other doing our own thing, or argue.

I feel like he has no consequences for his actions and thinks saying sorry is enough. Every awful thing he has done I have forgiven him, so why wouldn't I forgive the name calling and general insults and shitty behaviour in an argument?

I wish he would be the one to walk away. And then I don't have to make a choice I'm not sure on.

He has two sides. Either massively supportive and considerate and goes out of his way to make me happy and make my life easier. Or acts like a complete asshole and says things 'he doesn't mean' that completely contradict his nice behaviour. I'm a stay at home mum to two young children. A nearly 4 year old who is going through and incredibly challenging stage, and a 18 month old who has been unwell for the last 6 months and is like Velcro. He says he sees how hard it is and appreciates what I'm doing and then a few hours later says I sit on my arse all day doing nothing and I'm not doing enough. He doesn't realise how the negative carries more weight than the positive as he backs up the negative with his comments and behaviour.

He recently got a big promotion and is now in charge of a lot of people. And now he is treating me like a stupid employee. But worse than he would speak to an employee. Using phrases like 'put you in your place' 'knock you off your high horse'. And last night he even said I 'didn't do as I was told'. I would usually give back in an argument but last night it felt utterly pointless and I just said there refusing to fight back and saying are you being serious, do you not see how you're speaking to me.

I've given up trying to help him change and work through his issues. 5 years is a long time to put up with a shit relationship. We wouldn't be together if we didn't have children.

Well only you can change this situation and you already know that.
The scales are starting to fall but you've not had your 'light bulb' moment yet.
That final straw that breaks the camels back.
You don't have to wait for that.
Have you looked at what separation would be like?
Have a chat with CAB and see what you would be entitled to.
What is the living situation?
Mortgaged house or renting?
You are not married so you are limited with what you will get if the house is in his name only.
But he will need to pay maintenance for the DC.
You know you shouldn't be putting up with it so there's not point in us telling you that.
Have a chat with Womens Aid so you can see this for what it is.
Have you read the Lundy Bancroft book - Why does he do that?
If not then get reading.
You'll find your abusive 'D'P in there.

What hellsbellsmelons wrote here.

Your partner is abusive. You have a choice re this man, your children do not. This is patently not the relationship model you want to be showing your kids either. What are you getting out of this relationship now, staying for the kids is rarely if ever a good idea and in your case a particularly bad one. Maybe you have not properly accepted he is abusive till now and that you should leave due to fear of him, codependency (maybe you are confusing love with this state) the sunken costs fallacy, wanting to make it work, pride, fear of change, fear of the unknown, money worries. All those and more besides can come into play here.

Re your comment:-

"I've given up trying to help him change and work through his issues. 5 years is a long time to put up with a shit relationship. We wouldn't be together if we didn't have children".

That says it all really. Make a new life for yourself and your kids without him in it day to day. This individual will simply try and drag you and the kids down further with him. Womens Aid and the Rights of Women can and will help you here move forward.

He is not going to walk away here because he is as happy as a clam with his ready made slave who is still around for him to abuse and as when he sees fit. If you go and you should, he would have to put the work in into finding another victim to partner up with and abuse her too. What you write of as well re good and bad times is the cycle of abuse and that is a continuous one. You're going to have to walk away here and he won't let you go that easily either. He will undoubtedly continue to remain obstructive and otherwise difficult post separation, he is not going to have any sort of personality change or epiphany here. He feels entitled to treat you like he does and has done.

When you are away from him work on further rebuilding your self worth and self esteem along with improving your too low boundaries. All that has taken a real battering at his hands. The Freedom Programme run by Womens Aid would be well worth doing in your case too. This individual saw something in you he can and has indeed exploited; he targeted you really and such men hate women, all of them.

You will have that light bulb moment. That moment when you know that this is it. You will still have doubts and feel guilt, but deep down you will know that you are ready and you will do it.

You don't need big words like "abusive", you just need to make that decision.

Your partner does not have to be 100% evil all of the time for you to allow yourself to leave. What you are describing is plenty.

Erica Jong once said that "Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't" - asking for advice here on Mumsnet means that a part of you have already made up your mind, you just need to get the rest of you onboard.

Hi OP: I lived with a man a bit like your husband, 21 years together and two kids.We had moments wherre we laughed, still had sex, talked etc, then we had a lot of times where he was vile, explosive anger and generally fucked with my head a lot. He has issues with depression and anxiety which made it harder to process and undertstand whether he really meant it or not.

What happened was he chipped away at my sense of self, I walked around on egg shells all the time and didn't feel comfortable in my own home. I also realised the kids were picking up in his treatment of me. I have two boys and I wanted above all to show them that you don't have to live like that, and your own happiness counts as much as your significant other.

I started to confide in a few freinds, I posted on here and started reading up a bit about abusive men. I worked though all my fears one by one, and wrote a list of positive and negatives about our relationship. the biggest hurdle for me was processing how I would have to be apart form my boys when he has them, finances and the fall out from leaving him.

I won't say it has been easy, it hasn't and we still have difficulties but I am much stornger and happier. Much much happier, I am 16 months out now, I have been dating, had a 6 month thing with a FWB and should move into my new home in the summer.

Take each day at a time, and look at the way he treats others, if he can control himself with others, he can with you he just choses not too. i refused to be a verbal punch bag anymmore, I can walk away and slowly build my self esteeem again. Good luck.

And I stil find it hard to describe my ex as abusive, because what does that say about me? I am a professional woman who most people would say is confident and friendly etc. People can't believe sometimes how I put up with so much, but despute everything I did still love him. We grew up together form the age of 17, well I grew, he didn't.

You don't need to label him abusive if it doens't fit right with you, just being unhappy is enough.

pudding21, exactly, I also find it very hard to admit some of the things that my STBXH did, because what does that say about me that I allowed it to happen and didn't walk away? He certainly had moments where he was abusive, but overall he was just an idiot, and in the end it wasn't those occasions where he was abusive that led me to leave him, it was daily life with him.

When I had my light bulb moment, I told him it was over, and I started seeing a counsellor to get my thoughts in order and make sure I was making the right decision. Seeing a counsellor helped me not lose my shit at home and the breakup was relatively amicable. He moved out 8 months after I told him it was over. We are co-parenting quite well and are on speaking terms.

Part of the problem is I feel responsible for him. He has no family, no friends. He had a horrible childhood and is no contact with all his family. He has a lot of issues and has overcome a lot. But has also put me through a hell of a lot.

It's so hard because my family see him as family and I have no one to turn to as it's all 'oh but he's come so far and has no one else.' And 'he's such a good dad and you two have so much fun.' And then I'm left feeling like he's my responsibility and it's my fucking duty to help him through life.

He is a good dad. He can be incredibly considerate. He never sees the children as 'my job' and will do the nights and give me lay ins when I'm exhausted, and will do bed time and dinner for them and for us if I've had a bad day. And has no problem me having evenings out or breaks on the weekend for me time. He took a job he didn't want because it meant our life style went from struggling to comfortable.

I have tried to get passed the things he has done. A lot of lies and betrayal, I have honestly tried. And when things are good, I think we are moving passed it. And then when things are bad, I feel like it's been 5 years of shit. 5 years of putting up with awful behaviour and putting my feelings second.

And I should just be grateful and compassionate that he has changed in lots of ways for me.

But I've given up so much for him. That I can never fully financially trust him. That we will never have friends and be able to socialise with other families or couples. Even though I have never been someone who dreamed of a wedding day and a big event, if I wanted that, I can't have that. I can't even have a marriage without someone I can't trust and can't risk legally tying myself to someone who is unpredictable and untrustworthy.

So many things I have said goodbye to for the sake of the relationship. And i can't seem to find the backbone or bravery to walk away. Because I will miss the good stuff. And dd1 will be devastated. We had a 4 month break last year after his last betrayal. She was very very upset. And I feel like I took him back and now he'd to lay in my bed instead of playing with the kids emotions again.

When did I become such a weak, miserable doormat. This isn't who I was.

Pudding

re your comment:-
"And I stil find it hard to describe my ex as abusive, because what does that say about me? I am a professional woman who most people would say is confident and friendly etc".

You are probably very empathetic as well but perhaps over give too which is probably something he honed in on. You are not to blame for his abuse of you, that is all on him and his sole responsibility.

You were 17 when you met him and had no real life experience behind you. He used that against you as well, he was probably all sweetness and light in the beginning.

Your ex was and remains abusive; they do not just have to hit you to hurt you. Some abusive men as well like supposedly confident women because they see that as a challenge to take down to their base level. He probably thought and still does that he is perfect in his own mind.

Am glad to read you got away from him. I hope life continues to remain good for you.

The Freedom Programme by Womens Aid may be worth looking into if you have not already considered this.

mama

What did you learn about relationships when growing up?.

Why are you still putting yourself last here?. Keep burying yourself as you have done and you will be in this same sorry situation in a further five years time. And what then for you?. Do not do that to yourself and in turn your kids. You've already handed over way too much to him already, he is all take take take whilst you've given all your power away even down to the kids surname (which is probably his too come to think of it).

What "good stuff" is there in this relationship now?. What is at all good about this?. Would you want your children as adults to have a relationship just like this, no you would not. So stop showing them that is acceptable to you on some level. Your family of origin only see his "good" side and comes across as plausible to them but like many abusive men you see the true version behind closed doors. Abuse like this as well thrives on secrecy, time to bust this wide open and not keep secrets for him any more.

The bad in all this far outweighs any good and he is giving your kids mixed messages by treating you as his mother poorly whilst they are treated otherwise. He is really doing what other fathers do with their children and does not deserve being put on a pedestool for that.

You seem also to be mired in codependency (this whole idea that you are somehow still responsible for him) too. Its not a healthy state at all for you to be in. Who made it your job to carry him here, he is supposed to be a functioning adult. He is really just a kidult who you continue to mother at your overall expense. He is trashing your whole relationship here and harming his kids emotionally in the process because they will grow up thinking that yes, this is how men treat women. They also see you tolerate it from him and think well if mum is ok with it then I am too. They are absorbing all the mixed messages here.

Your children are not the arbiters of your relationship and I doubt very much they will be as devastated as you think they would be should you separate permanently. Children love parents anyway no matter how rubbish they are, in this case their dad. They need to be shown positive lessons on relationships, not this crap legacy.

Mama you could be me 4 year ago.

I loved my DH (still do and always will) but he had an awful childhood and as he got older and more stuff happened it got worse and worse and despite the nice times, I couldn't bear walking on eggshells anymore, hated being called a loser and an idiot and didn't want my son to think it was a normal way to behave. I know from reading a lot of these posts people are told to take their time, get their ducks in a row so to speak but for me, I just looked at him one day, his face screwed up in anger and I couldn't bear it for another minute. I left that day and never went back.

It's been hard, it's been fucking hard and I do suffer from terrible guilt even now (to the point I walked away with nothing and still don't take anything from him) but I know it was for the best, for me and my son.

Your day will come, one day that lightbulb will ping on.

mama my ex also has or has no-one and wasn't working at the time I left him, the guilt was immense. But he chose to isolate himself from others, he choses not to maintain or persue new freindships etc. that isn't your fault. Like the PP my ex told me to "drop dead of cancer" in front of people in a park and my two boys. The previous year I lost my best friend at the age of 33 to breast cancer. It took me three years and a lot more abuse etc to leave after that. The kids by the way have dealt with it really well and are both thriving in ways I coulnd't imagine. They have overnights with their dad regularly and their relationship has also improved. My eldest says now he is much calmer.

Atilla thanks for the words, you helped me a lot when I posted about my ex before. I have looked at the freedom program but I am not in the UK.

mamahanji, you have sacrificed too much for this relationship. So did I. I have no idea what made me think I had to give up so much! I really don't think it's something I learned as a child, but I guess during the relationship I developed a pattern of sacrificing/giving thinking I would get a return on my investment.

Have you talked to your DP about all this? I did talk to my STBXH about the problems, but he only seemed to listen when I got really upset and threatened with leaving. Then he would try for a short while, but we soon fell back into the same pattern. He did agree that we had problems, but he seemed to think they were my problems, not ours.

Have you talked to you DP about counselling? My STBXH refused to go to couples' counselling, he thought it would be another opportunity for me to tell him off. So I went on my own, but I could not fix things without him.

You know, you don't have to miss out on all the good stuff if you leave. My STBXH and I still do family stuff together, something I think the DC really appreciate, even though it's not 100 % friction free.

Betty, that's really impressive, just getting up and leaving one day! We all do things differently. I know the MN ducks in a row theory, and it may work for some, it depends on the situation. I did a bit of it, we spent some months living together after we agreed to split where we both saved up and planned, and I'm glad we did, as STBXH now lives in a nice flat that he likes and I stayed in the family home with DC. STBXH pays child maintenance, a set amount we agreed, not as much as the online calculators suggested, but an amount that I could technically survive without - I don't want to be dependant and I don't want STBXh resenting me because he thinks the child maintenance is to big a chunk out of his earnings. From my perspective I do far more of the practical things than he does as a parent, but I am willing to do a lot to avoid conflict. And it's my choice this time, it's not a survival mechanism, and I don't feel that he owes me.

We aren't married. Kids have my name. Even if we were married, they would have my name and I would have my name.

My family know about the thinks he has done. And everyone continued to support him even when we split. I don't want him to be alone, but I feel like my parents see it as two siblings fighting and don't want to take sides.

I remember my parents arguing a lot when I was young. And I remember my mum treating my dad with very little respect. But as I got older I found out that my dad actually treated my mum badly and was very immature. I saw my mum put up with a lot and I've asked her if she regrets staying with him and she says she doesn't. Even though I know they don't have a good relationship and have never had a good relationship.

I guess it's given me a view that that's what I should do. You commit and you get on with it.

Miss with hindsight I wish I'd not left quite as quickly as it was a massive shock for my son. One minute he was playing his x box and the next he was marching off down the drive with me. To be fair I did say to DH we would go the following day but he said to me "You can fuck off now and take him with you"......my poor DS :(

However, if I'd planned too much I was scared the moment would pass and I'd talk myself into staying. Seems like you have a good balance which is great for your DC.

mamahanji , it sounds like your parents want you to stay to validate that they stayed together. I didn't want to leave for years, because my parent's divorce was awful and very traumatic, and I didn't want that for my DC or myself, I wanted to stay and work it out. Eventually I realised that my marriage was nothing like my parent's. I have done it very differently, and although of course the split wasn't fun and games, it has been much less traumatic than I expected. I have spent a lot of time and energy keeping things amicably. Luckily my STBXH was on board!

You don't have to do as your parents say. I sense that their attitude makes you doubt yourself?

To a certain extent it's really good that your parents see your DP as family - my DM never liked my STBXH, and that made it very difficult. I still feel very bitter that she never supported my choice of spouse, but of course she wanted to protect me. My DF always managed to see the good sides of my STBXH and I am eternally grateful for that.

Your parents should however support you and respect that your marriage are very different to what they see.

Betty, it obviously worked for you! I think that any way of splitting has an element of regret, it's just never a great thing.

Pudding

I feel exactly the same. Its hard not to be humiliated.

Thank you everyone for your advice and comments.

I'm sure everyone knows I don't have the backbone or the lightbulb yet and just carry on plodding along.

It appears I am not the strong woman I thought I had grown up to be. I am having issues with a parent at nursery and I have this complete verbal block at telling him he is making me uncomfortable and to stop touching me.

Seems I have some issues I need to work on.

Dear *mama, you will find the strength eventually! Is it at all possible for you to seek some counselling? I didn't find it as expensive as I had feared, and it was very efficient.

Re the inappropriate parent, can you ask someone else to talk to him for you? It's okay to ask for help, you know!

@mamahanji Your post really resonates with me. I am in a not-too-dissimilar situation really, but possible a few weeks or months further along.

You sound like you have fallen into the trap of co-dependency - usually this involves a substance abuser but can also happen when one person has a lot of issues and the other person spends their whole life trying to help them.
You obviously feel very responsible for him - but when has he ever made an effort to use your support to become better, to become stronger and responsible for himself? He hasn't! My H is an alcoholic, and suffers a range of related issues. I have bore the brunt of these issues for years and it has ground me down to the point where I am a zombie from treading on eggshells and having to neglect myself to prevent a massive blow up or something from harming the kids. The harm still happens of course, it's just it's taken me with it!

Anyway - posting on here is good place to start, mumsnetters made me see that these men are responsible for themselves, and what you (and I) are doing is not supporting them, but facilitating them to stay exactly as they are. All done with the best of intentions of course but at great harm to ourselves. You are worth much more than this, and and you can only get better once you are not tip toeing around him anymore.

I am starting to see things a lot more clearly now and frankly I am angry - it's a relief to feel angry, get angry too! It helps to feel and you can trust yourself, you have a right to feel feelings.
I've told him that we are over. He doesn't yet believe me and my spine is not yet strong enough to really force the issue! As mentioned above, these men do not like it when we try to remove ourselves from the situation and will try every trick in the book to remain in their comfortable positions with us maintaining their easy lives so do not expect it to be easy. But once you have your own mind back and start to get yourself back, then ultimately there is nothing they can do.

I wish you luck OP, there is a lot of support here