Expectations and sacrifices in relationships

[WelshGirl2]

I've been lurking around the boards for a while and every so often see a post where the OP is advised the guy they are seeing who doesn't seem to want to commit is wanting all the benefits of a girlfriend /relationship but without the commitment /sacrifices/expectations.

As someone who (despite being over 40) has very little experience of relationships I am not sure I fully understand what it is that these men don't want. I understand what the benefits are that they are getting, and I understand (i think) that commitment would mean committing to a long term future, to working on the relationship if problems arise rather than walking away, to perhaps eventually living with someone and marriage.

What I don't understand is what the expectations and sacrifices would be? The way they are spoken about suggests they are fairly onerous things, that some man may be very unwilling to do. I may be being stupid, but I can't really think what sort of expectations a woman might have of a man which the man would think unreasonable and which he would be unwilling to do. The sort of things I think I would expect in a relationship seem reasonable to me, and not onerous. Thus
i am wondering if someone could please enlighten me about what it is that these men think women expect of them? When someone says a man wants the benefits of a relationship without the expectations and sacrifices, what expectations and sacrifices are they meaning? Are they talking about major expectations or just little things?

That means he has the sex wo having to make any effort at all.

In any relationhsip, at some point, you will have to compromise or out yourself second to your partner. Just because you values them/their well being.

These men don’t want any of the effort but still want to sex and the feeling of ‘being in a relationship’ (aka the person isn’t going to go away so no need to worry about finding someone for sex plus yiu have some emotional support, someone looking out for you/taking care of you etc..)

Thank you. But what sort of things would a woman expect a man to compromise on that a man would be unwilling to compromise on?

I have been trying to think what I would expect in a relationship and I don't have a particularly long list:
To be cared about
To be respected
To spend time together
To be honest with each other
To feel safe
I may come up with one or two more if I keep thinking. Are these the sort of expectations some men would think are too much? That they wouldn't want to "deliver on"? Or am I expecting too little?

Presumably immature or selfish men don’t want to commit to being faithful, don’t want to be “tied down”, and don’t want kids. They don’t want to consider their partner’s feelings or needs, they don’t want to share a home or chores, they just want a convenient doormat who will provide them with sex on tap, cook their meals and do as they’re told! Slightly tongue in cheek, but I’m sure you get the drift?

Spending less time alone or with friends. Having to do things for someone else. Having to spend time with someone else's family (maybe). Having to share your money. Having less control over some aspects of your own life. Having less personal space. Compromising on little and large things. Investing a lot of emotional energy into someone else. Not being able to have sex with other people (and often having to modify other related behaviour like flirting). Generally less autonomy.

I think not wanting to do some or all of those things is quite understandable. For some people those "negatives" are worth the positives (or they don't value them as much, so they're barely negative)...but for other people they aren't worth relinquishing, especially if going without some of the "perks" of a committed relationship isn't a big deal either.

You could summarise your list as “wanting to be totally selfish, and being incapable of loving”!
Mind you, if someone is this cold and calculating, it’s better that they stay away from relationships altogether.

wanting to be totally selfish, and being incapable of loving”

This is it, 100%, for some reason, perhaps development, societal or genetic some people (I would guess higher % men) cannot put a partners needs above their own.It feels too controlling or limiting.

Whereas some people can happily be part of a "team" and compromise isn't a loaded word, its just a natural part of being in a relationship.

I also think there are people who have addictions and this causes them to act in selfish ways.

I'm going to disagree slightly on some aspects.
I completely agree with others like:
To be cared about
To be respected
To spend time together
To be honest with each other
To feel safe

However, I do think that as some people get older, there are aspects of standard long term relationships that they realise just don't want.
For me, for example, I like living on my own and having my own space. I'd prefer a partner who does too.
I don't think a man who feels the same is intrinsically selfish. He might just be aware if what he wants from life and where he's willing to compromise.
The important thing is whether he's honest about it.
There's a recent thread somewhere on here where women - mostly single mothers - who feel very similarly. They've got their lives sorted and don't want to go the whole hog again in a relationship. It's probably fair to think there are like minded men out there too.

I was fortunate in having a wonderful husband who was a good Christian, utterly loving, and who put my needs and our babies’ needs before his own. Sadly he died before our youngest reached her first birthday. That was 26 years ago, and I never remarried - because I discovered that men like him are either very rare, or already happily married. There seem to be plenty of men who don’t regard women as equals, and simply want to make use of them and discard them. There is no incentive for such men to change their ways, as there’s an endless supply of women with low self esteem who are willing to be used and dumped. I think modern porn culture reinforces this view of women as objects for men to wank into, rather than humans to be loved in a shared relationship.

The threads are often about marriage (and the resulting legal and financial responsibilities) and / or having DC.

I guess I'm one of those, I'm not a man (thank God lol) but I'm definitely at a stage where I can understand why someone would want the perks of a relationship without the sacrifices, although I can see this is selfish and unkind so instead I just stay single. I have recently ended a fwb type thing because they wanted more than I would ever be willing to give, I was very honest about where it would and would not go but I think they thought that because I'm a woman I would start to feel things and change my mind, I didn't, I know how I feel and I know my own mind.
Basically respect and caring about someone are a given, everyone wants and deserves this.
But I don't have the energy or desire to become emotionally invested in someone, I am able to separate that from sex.
So for me, I'm happy to spend time with someone, I like physical interaction but I'm not willing to compromise any other part of my life.
I don't want to plan a future with someone, I don't want to share my personal space. That will not change any time soon.
I don't want to meet peoples children/family/friends. I have my own and I like that part of my life being separate.
Who knows I may meet the one, one day but if not I'm happy with how my life Is, I don't need someone else to complete it.
I date, I have brief flings that are fun and I always show those men respect and kindness, but I have no desire to make it anymore than that. Im not willing to put their needs or feelings ahead of mine not even ocassionally and thats needed sometimes in a relatuonship.
I'm not willing to adjust my lifestyle to suit someone else's and that is also necessary in relationships, compramise is important.
I like that I can do what I want with who I want when I want without having to consider anyone else. My children are grown and my friends are close and apart from helping elderly parents and family I have no intention of being responsible for anything or anyone else.

Thank you everyone, I am starting to get a better understanding now.

Spending less time alone or with friends. Having to do things for someone else. Having to spend time with someone else's family (maybe). Having to share your money. Having less control over some aspects of your own life. Having less personal space. Compromising on little and large things. Investing a lot of emotional energy into someone else. Not being able to have sex with other people (and often having to modify other related behaviour like flirting). Generally less autonomy.

Thank you for these examples, I think it is these sorts of things that have had me confused. Several of them are things that I would never expect someone I was in a relationship to do, such as:
having to spend time with someone else's family - wouldn't expect this. My immediate family can be a little odd and I wouldn't insist on a partner or boyfriend spending time with them unless they really wanted to
Sharing money - I am self sufficient, live alone, can afford to pay my mortgage and bills, and to socialise and to go on holiday. I dodn't need a guy's money. As above, if he wanted to share, then fine, but if not I don't need his money and don't expect it
Having to do things for someone else - again, I am independent and self sufficient and don't expect or need anyone else to do things for me

Others are things that surely would happen even in a FWB arrangement (such as spending less time alone, having less personal space), so why would having to do them in a relationship be any different?

Others don't seem overly onerous to me, though I guess may to some men. I invest emotional energy in my friendships, I would naturally do it in any relationship, it wouldn't be hard and wouldn't be something I wouldn't want to do.

The not having sex with other people is one thing I definitely would expect.

So if those are the "negatives" that a guy thinks will happen if he is in a relationship, and many of them are things that i don't actually expect, it seems I have a different (perhaps non-traditonal) view to many people about what relationship is like/how it would work? I would still call it a relationship, but seems these men who wouldn't want to relinquish these things might not want to call it a that (or to them it wouldn't be a relationship)

I think this probably explains it better than I could TBH.

There are quite a lot of people who want the privilege of being loved without returning said love and who just don’t understand that feeling inside yourself that you love someone else is totally pointless if you don’t show the other person loving behaviour.

However, I do think that as some people get older, there are aspects of standard long term relationships that they realise just don't want.
For me, for example, I like living on my own and having my own space. I'd prefer a partner who does too.
I don't think a man who feels the same is intrinsically selfish. He might just be aware if what he wants from life and where he's willing to compromise.
The important thing is whether he's honest about it.
There's a recent thread somewhere on here where women - mostly single mothers - who feel very similarly. They've got their lives sorted and don't want to go the whole hog again in a relationship. It's probably fair to think there are like minded men out there too.

This makes a lot of sense to me. Having never lived with a man, I am unsure if I would want do so for the first time at my age. I am very independent, and like my autonomy and space. I think I would be happy/willing to try it if the guy did want to live together, but if he didn't I am not sure if it would be something I would be pushing for.

I saw the thread about single mothers. The contrast between views in that thread (that "part time" relationships are great, that it's ok not to want to live together, that it's fine for both partners to do their own thing much of the time and just meet up once or twice a week), and other threads (where women are told to run a mile if he says he doesn't want a relationship, that they are being used for sex, that he doesn't care about them enough) was really interesting.

Welsh - the differences between that thread and the situations where that advice is given is the single mothers thread was women saying what they want/don’t want out of a relationship and the others are women saying what they do want and then their partners lying to them, paying lip service to what they want and stringing them along.

There are often threads where people come on saying ‘I want marriage/kids/living together but DP doesn’t’ where the advice is ‘you are incompatible, split up’ too.

But then I think some of the things written on this thread are personal preferences rather than essentials re a relationship. The themes in the link I posted I think are universal. Some people may have different forms of them, for example, non monogamy with terms re loyalty that are different to monogamous couples or dating vs marriage re commitment but the themes I think really are the universal basis for practicing love.

Some people don’t want to be there, be beneficent, be expected to be non-maleficent, make any commitment or sacrifice no matter how small, be consistent, loyal, candid, trustworthy, considerate, empathetic or tolerant yet they seek to hold their partner to those standards.

That I think is what is often the thing with those relationships where people talk about wanting the benefits without the sacrifices.

And I do think it is more of a problem with men than women because sexism still shapes men’s and women’s expectations re heterosexual relationships.

It depends on the two partners and their stage in life too. The reasons for not wanting a relationship in their twenties vs their fifties will be different. A man who is trying to disentangle himself from a woman in her twenties who wants marriage and children will be "avoiding" different things to that of a man meeting a woman over 40 who wants a relationship without any particular end goal other than being together.

My cousin is about 22 and quite happy to spend his Sunday having lunch with his girlfriend's mum and then going for family dog walks etc. but a couple of years ago he'd have spent it sleeping off a hangover from his Saturday night out.

I think it is common for men to be less sacrificing in relationships. It is inbuilt in society and possibly nature that women will put up with more and take it for longer. We have more to cling on to, or to think we should cling on for depending on your point of view, in younger years wanting a family, in older years the difficulty with introducing children etc as normally the resident parent. It is a good tip to raise the bar boundary wise and know when to not accept the unacceptable but it is harder to put into practice.

I think there is still a lot of socialisation of boys and girls around relationships with each other that promotes the view that a relationship is not meant to be happy. Sacrificing almost all of who you are for the benefit of your male partner is still somewhat expected from women and men are taught that they must do anything they possibly can do avoid the threat represented by being vulnerable with a woman.

That is so true offred but what can be done to change it I wonder. I have definitely been victim to this. I hope this will be different for the younger generation, especially being the mother of a daughter.

I am heartened by much of the recent attention given to SA TBH. I’m trying to socialise my boys and girls to understand how to love and be loved.

Offred, I think you are right that the themes are universal, and that perhaps some of the things mentioned on this thread are maybe down to personal preference.

I had got a bit hung up about the whole "he doesn't want the sacrifices/expectations/negatives" of a relationship, as it felt as if people were saying these sacrifices were essential and non-negotiable and that you can't possibly have a relationship without them. But I was thinking more of practical things (I guess like sharing of money, meeting family, as mentioned by a PP) and I couldn't think of any (other than monogamy) that I would insist on, so was thinking I had the wrong idea of what a relationship should be like. I was thinking that I HAD to want/need a man to make those sacrifices, and that if he didn't then it is not a relationship worth being in.

The themes in the link certainly would be essential for me, so essential that I didn't even think to list some of them in my earlier post, as they seemed a "given". Everything else, the practical things I guess, like living together, time apart, autonomy, money etc, would be things I may or may not deem necessary/important depending on the man, how the relationship is going, things happening in the rest of my life and probably other factors. I certainly don't think that someone who doesn't want to do these is necessarily selfish, or incapable of loving.

What I take from this is that it is my choice what form a relationship takes, and what I would expect from a partner. That what other women might want or need might not be what I want or need. That a man who would not be a suitable match for other women might actually be great for me. That as long as the two parties are open and honest with each other about what they do and don't want or expect from each other, and they both want the same, there is no problem.

But it is still so pervasive. My DS who is 12 had a difficult y7 where he was being pushed around a lot, coming home with his bag destroyed from being pulled on and his tie ripped and tight around his neck. One time he was bitten through his blazer and it left a clear bite mark bruise...

The welfare officer’s response was ‘oh this is just boy’s... they like to rough house as a way to bond, he needs some good male role models to help him understand how to be a boy’ 🙄

DS was perpelexed as he doesn’t see why boys are so different from girls and he was frustrated that she was essentially telling him he had to put up with people hurting him just because he is a boy.

What I take from this is that it is my choice what form a relationship takes, and what I would expect from a partner. That what other women might want or need might not be what I want or need. That a man who would not be a suitable match for other women might actually be great for me. That as long as the two parties are open and honest with each other about what they do and don't want or expect from each other, and they both want the same, there is no problem.

Amen to this!!!