I want to leave but I can’t find the courage.

[hereagainagain]

It’s a long one but please bear with me.

6 years ago my dh had a very short lived affair with a colleague his dad had just died and I had PND it was hell. I threw him out but we decided to work on things we went to counselling, both ended up on anti depressants for a short time. We worked incredibly hard and I genuinely forgave him. We for the last 5 years have had a great marriage very happy together we worked on re building trust and on communication truly and madly in love.

About 8 weeks ago I discovered that he had gotten us into a little bit of a financial mess nothing huge but he had lied to me several times and gone behind my back. All with good intentions. He over spent doing some work on a house for our best friends whose son had a terminal disease and who died in feb. The mess started there but got bigger When I found out I went mad because of all the lies and deceit I felt like all the work we had done was worthless because as soon as he was in a difficult spot his instinct is to lie. I decided I wanted to leave then had packed his bags and saw a solicitor and then our 10 year old dd had a serious accident which meant she was in hospital for over a week and I just couldn’t face putting them through it.

Over the last 5 years we have put things in place to keep our marriage safe and one of those things was keeping female friendships to a minimum eg no socialising/contacting female colleagues except in agreed ways eg Whole team WhatsApp were ok but 1-1 not ok, texting about none work related stuff with female colleagues not ok. Work nights out with the team ok, 1-1/1-2 with women not ok etc. A while ago I saw that he was texting one of the women he worked with it was mainly work stuff but occasionally not (nothing flirty) so I asked him to stop and to only communicate about work stuff and ideally through the group text. He agreed but then a few days ago I saw a bunch of messages between then (loads) again nothing sexual or even particularly flirty but possibly bordering on that (eg she asked him what she should wear to the Xmas night out, he said whatever is the 1st outfit you try on so they all could get to the pub ASAP) I saw the messages but never said anything 30 mins later I get his phone again and he’s deleted them all!

I just feel so betrayed and hurt I asked him why and he said he knew I would be mad so he hid it but there’s nothing at all in it but they are close friends. I spoke to her and told her about his previous affair and the fact he had deleted all the messages she apologised and insisted they were friends and sent me screen shots of their messages which maybe got a little flirty but not really she has agreed not to have any contact with him outside of work. He basically said that it was an ego boost that she made he feel good but where would that have stopped? he had all the tools, knew exactly how to stop it from being a danger to our marriage and still chose not to. There was also another women who had messaged him after their work night out and he had replied again nothing flirty just talked about their night but why not in the group message he didn’t need to reply at all and her messages where also deleted. Her number wasn’t saved in his phone so she had pulled it from the group text.

I am a realist I know people flirt etc and I am honestly fine with that as long as the boundaries are in place. I have a male colleague who I flirt with, play pranks on etc and it’s a running joke he’s in love with me but I am 100% upfront with DH about this. I also don’t have him on social media and we don’t have each other’s phone numbers and only socialise together a couple of times a year with my whole team.
Day to day he is great very thoughtful, kind, supportive, 50/50 parenting we have a great sex life enjoy spending time together love being toget but how I can I stay with this man he has no respect for me or our family and chosen his ego over me. I can’t spend my life checking up on him not wanting him to go out without me worrying when he works late. I had always said that I would stay but only if I was truly happy I wouldn’t stay in a sham but now it’s really here I just don’t know where to go. How do I break our girls hearts they both put on their Xmas list lots of family time they love our family. I am devastated this is where we are I haven’t eaten in 2 days have lost half a stone and feel like I can barely breath. Last week we were having breakfast with Santa planning 2018. Now I asking for divorce advice.

If his default is to lie, then that is what is going to be his setting for the future. he gets caught out, pulls puppy eyes, then does it all over again.

Lying undermines all the good aspects of your relationship. Makes a mockery of it. He is blatantly messaging other women, denying it, doing it again. You chase up the women and warn them off but he keeps at it. This is not changing one iota despite all your work and it is unlikely to change. Th4e pressure of not being able to trust him must be horrible.

By the way. In reference to the joke about your work colleague being in love with you...Freud said taht there are no jokes only the truth. There is a hint of fantasy in that. If you were entirely satisfied at home you would not need to do pretend flirting with someone else who pretends they are in love with you.

@hereagainagain
It doesn't sound good OP. If you say that you both rebuilt your marriage and that your sex life is good, why is he keeping part of himself hidden from you and trying to get some need of his filled elsewhere?

Men of a certain age look towards the future and think 'Is this it?' Maybe this is where you need to look for answer? See how he feels about the future with you?

I'm sorry you are feeling this way. By the sounds of it I don't think you rebuilt the trust as much as maybe you think you have after his affair.
If you still feel the need to check his messages you don't trust him. Perhaps his lying in regard to finances was more to protect you from worrying.
My husband had an affair when I was 6 months pregnant with our second child it was devastating, we stayed together and worked on things, went to counselling but after 3 years I still didn't trust him fully. We separated but continued a relationship until I realised I would never be able to trust him fully and it would always be a wedge between us. We are now divorced. It's been 6 years since the affair and I still wouldn't trust him if I was with it. You're not alone, don't make any rash decisions, talk to your OH about how he feels. Maybe by not trusting him and checking up on him it could be pushing him away.

I feel desperately alone when he had the affair I had amazing support but just don’t feel able to talk to anyone as it’s like admitting defeat. I don’t often check his phone rarely in fact but I use it for prime so when it pinged I looked.
I just don’t get it he says he wants to be with me just me and there was never anything more with them. We have been together 16 years.
Lola on my part it’s nothing more than messing about at work I don’t find him attractive but I know he has a crush on me which is why I ensure that I don’t have any contact with him except when working.

here I don't think there is room for messing about with someone you know has a crush on you when your marriage is so riven with trust issues. It doesn't make sense from here.
No matter how harmless you think the situation is with your work colleague the behaviour is odd when you put it alongside all the problems you are having with your husband. how is there room, emotionally, for some sort of low level chase me catch me?
There must be something you are getting out of it or you wouldn;t be involved in it, light hearted or otherwise.

To be honest on this one I don't think he is particularly flirting overly. In isolation I would say you were overreacting but and this is where the problem lies, when you forgive an affair, you never really forget and it can often rear its ugly head again like now.

I can’t see a way forward at the minute I go back and forth hourly. I have been out with my sisters and told them and they think I should leave (even though they love him) but they are young and don’t have kids. Feel trapped and so responsible for making a decision that may be wrong and could hurt my dds or going and regretting it.
Really and truly our life is good he said that this women is quite needy and he responds to that. He loves to save the day and excels in a crisis. I am independent and don’t ‘need’ him and I am raising my dds to be the same I thought he could handle that!

I'm sure you have talked. But communicate how you feel to your OH. Perhaps make it clear if he were to betray your trust in any way you would seriously consider leaving the relationship. Just remember the grass may seem greener on the other side but it usually isn't.
Perhaps ask yourself if you were to leave what support would u have for example friends and family. You would be single which is lonely when you are used to having someone there for so long. I know it can be such a huge decision to make especially when children are involved.
I many times regretted leaving but I have found peace with it finally, it's especially hard when the ex starts dating again, a lot of heartache involved. If you want to talk please feel free.

I bet if he posted here he would say that he is constantly walking on eggshells, that his partner is being incredibly controlling, does not trust him at all, is constantly checking up on him, and accuses him of disrespecting her. Me, I would tell him to leave her.

OP, if you need to put in place all these rules to keep your marriage safe, if you have to tell your partner in such excruciating detail how he can interact in HIS life with HIS work colleagues, then all you will have a list of acceptable behaviours and a nodding dog instead of a frank and honest partnership. You have told him how he must behave in order that he should be worthy enough for your trust and as a result you have made the mistake of thinking that the rules are the relationship. He lied to you because he made a mistake and he is scared of you, rather like a little boy and a strict parent.

What do you want? A marriage or a sham where you are indeed always checking up on him and always in fear? That is what you have now, a sham, no matter how great the sex etc etc. If BOTH of you really want to make a go of this, then get yourself to a really good, qualified, well recommended relationship counselor and be prepared for some hard work. Do not attempt to make a new bunch of crazy rules instead of doing this.

Haffiana I didn’t make a list of crazy rules at all we went to counselling and that was the suggestion they made to protect the marriage this is what needs to be put in place to ensure friendships don’t cross boundaries as suggested by a well qualified and well recommended professional. It’s advice I have seen time and time again. most importantly he has loads of friends male and female that I don’t have a problem with he doesn’t need a secret one which could/has endangered our marriage. The ‘rules’ were for both of us not just him and were agreed to and devolped together. I don’t check up on him, he goes away, out with friends and I don’t check up on him . I read a message that popped up on his phone whilst I was using his amazon account.
He didn’t lie because he was scared he lied because I had specifically asked him not to do something and he did it. I am not controlling not sure how you have reached that conclusion? Is excruciating detail to say don’t message other women you work with because you crossed lines with someone before? Would it be acceptable if I was messaging another man asking him what I should wear? I think my dh would have a problem with that.

Marveldc- My concern is that I would trade one set of problems for another. Our relationship really did feel great (previously) it wasn’t (for me) a sham it was real for me. I just feel devastated that I am facing this again. He knew I would be unhappy with the friendship so he hid it surely no new friendship is worth risking your family for.

@hereagainagain

When I read the rules laid down after the affair, I was impressed. They are exactly what should be done to safeguard and help protect a marriage. So well done OP.

The “rules” do seem a little arbitrary to me. It’s acceptable for you to flirt with a colleague who is in love with you because that doesn’t breach the rules but not ok for him to be one to one messaging

If you want to work on your marriage I would agree with PP recommendations to go back to counselling and talk it through. Do you want to though?

I understand they may seem arbitrary but that’s sort of the point. They are in place to recognise that in an entire lifetime you may fancy someone else, you might be tempted but this is how you ensure you don’t act on it. It’s IMO unrealistic and naive to expect either party to never flirt and or be tempted ever it’s surely about how you deal with those feelings particularly if you are not feeling 100% satisfied. which again is unrealistic to expect every second of every day forever. It’s surely a balance of good/bad and even when it’s not amazing you follow the rules so when you have got through that blip or patch you haven’t ruined your marriage?

I of course want my marriage to work but I am not sure it’s possible to get through this if he’s not able or wants to live in the type of marriage i need. He really is in most ways a great man and I feel like we are bringing the worst out in each other he could be a wonderful husband to someone else who perhaps does have the expectations I have. I get he made a mistake panicked and deleted them but that shows he knew exactly what he was doing. I am an open book I would have no problem with him ever looking through my phone as I have nothing to hide. I follow the ‘rules’ but he clearly feels trapped by then but that is even more worrying because why does he need anything else outside of us?

Your DDs' Christmas lists were all about family time? Oh dear. That says to me that they are really feeling the toxic atmosphere. They desperately want to live in a happy loving home. Of course they will want that to be their nuclear family just without the problems, as children they can't see the other options. You are the adult. You have to work out what will make for a happy environment and good role models.

Run rabbit
I don’t think that’s true at all we have hectic lives both work full time I do lots of voluntary work and my dds do lots of activities. They love spending time as a 4 because it only happens a couple of times a week so having 2 weeks together with little else to do it exciting for them. They love us being a family especially my youngest she loved being at home for family movie night it’s the highlight of her week. Until a few days ago (way after the list was written) there was no toxic atmosphere we rarely argued, had fun together, very positive and loving towards each other toxic atmosphere in the last few days yes 100% but not previously.

I think you don't leave until you have counselling as there appears to be positives in the marriage.

What he needs to understand is his triggers, in princople he can agree to rules but something happens and he is triggered.
He may always need close female attention in addition to his marriage unless he can change.

Hermoine that’s exactly it which I thought he had recognised and that’s why we have the rules but he obviously can’t/won’t help himself. If he was just honest with me but all the lying and deceit is too much to bare at the moment.

Husband training leash perhaps?