"in a relationship, if EITHER partner persists in doing ANYTHING avoidable ...."

[NotQuiteCockney]

"...that upsets the other half to such a great degree then THAT PERSON is most definitely the one with problem.. and is CAUSING a problem for their partner"

This is a quote from another (porn-related) thread, but I felt it deserved its own thread.

I really really strongly disagree with this statement. I think that if one member of a couple disagrees with another's behaviour, you can't arbitrarily decide which person has 'a problem'.

So... just so I am sure I'm reading this right...

If I reeeeeeeeeeeally like watching Friends... DH hates it with a passion... then I am the one with the problem because I am doing it knowing it upsets him?

Well, you could say that if I had stayed with my exexex, my going out was avoidable. It upset him no end when I did - should I have stopped? Wasd I the one with the problem?

Well, yes, that's what the quote seems to be saying. And it was examples like yours, colditz, that I was thinking of.

Nopt sure about this one. I think it depends on what the 'thing' is

So, if someone were to continue to work against racism and this deeply upsets their partner, I think the racist is the one that has the problem!

However i think that there are a range of behaviours that can fairly easily be avoided that do cause a lot of grief to partners. I do feel that in these cases the 'causer' should adapt their behavior. If for no other reason it isn't nice to put your desires always above the feelings of another. Sort of grown up, selfish 'not sharing' I suppose.

I do think that you should not expect a partner to stay with you when your behavior is for whatever reason upsetting to them, and a lot of men do expect their wives to put up with all kids of shite.

and if my exexex had left be because I persisted in going out, well, good. I dumped hgim because of that issue anyway, but did think he might have dumped me for it one day/

Oh, absolutely, mb. I'm not saying the person objecting is the person with the problem all the time, either! I'm just saying, you can't arbitrarily decide which one has the problem, it depends on the situation and the couple and what activity they're objecting to.

colditz, your ex sounds like the sort of guy who would have expected you to alter your behaviour over an ever larger range of things.

So once you complied with A. he would demand B.

Eventually anyone would leave , and that would fullfil his views that 'women are not to be trusted' etc etc

My cousins ex was like that. Nasty guy.

It qould always depend on the situation - its madness to make a blanket rule

My statement which NQC was quoting verbatim, was not meant as "blanket rule" (they don't work in marriages.. it's about compromise although some things are NOT to be compromised over I'm sure most people would agree!).

I wasn't thinking of examples like "watching Friends" etc.. if the bloke has a problem with THAT it is HIS problem and he needs to get over it. I think my statement on the porn thread implies that I was meaning MUCH more serious "behaviours" and subsequent emotional upset in the other partner. As I typed it I was obviously relating it to the OP's of that thread's sitation.. that is that she has discovered her DP has been surfing porn BUT (here is the really relevant part) also sites which introduce you to "local f*ck buddies". And there was the usual influx of people saying "it's just porn.. men use porn.. get over it.. YOU have issues with self esteem etc" which always happens, and which prompted my long post about how this is NOT something that most people can be just "got over" and to find out a DP has been looking at these sites, is to possibly alter the women's perception of porn use forever. One doesn't have to lead to the other, but for some men it does.

And as I typed that statement, "...behaviour that upsets the other half to such a great degree then THAT PERSON is most definitely the one with problem.. and is CAUSING a problem for their partner" I was thinking of unreasonable and AVOIDABLE.. eg.. going out the pub EVERY NIGHT.. exessive swearing.. smoking.. drinking, gambling, etc although admittedly the last few egs may require professional help to stop/cut down on but the point I am making is that if a partner refuses to moderate this behaviour or at least TRY even though he/she KNOWS it is upsetting their partner considerable, then the problem IS being caused by that person!

The statement assumes that when you enter into a relationship, you agree NOT to do things that bother the other person, EVEN IF THOSE THINGS ARE PERFECTLY REASONABLE. This is not what a relationship is about. A relationship is about moving forward, encouraging each other to grow and change and develop into better and more mature people.

I think the original statement reflects a very immature view of relationships and any relationship based on this sort of grounding is not likely to lead to both partners progressing and growing as human beings.

Ah ShinyHappy have just read your post.

You say you were thinking of "unreasonable" behaviour.

I would agree that unreasonable behaviour should always be restrained.

NQC of course that statement is crap. It's just something they say to try and make their porn habits sound like the reasonable and "normal" option and the person who doesn't want their partner to take part in porn seem like the abnormal one.

Pardon Anorak? I didn't make that statement to EXCUSE porn use.. quite the opposite! Are you referring to the "thread title" statement?

MP not, I was actually specifically referring to UNreasonable behaviour.. not reasonable. Although I realise "unreasonable" is open to negotiation.

In that case I apologise SHP I shouldn't have assumed that's what it referred to, you're quite right.

I'm sorry, I guess it reminded me of some things my ex said in court to defend his pornography business when I was fighting for custody of my daughter sore point.

I think Shiny is getting a hard time here. She posted that comment in response to a particulr op about porn and how it made the op feel, and it was in support of someone who was having a very hard time.

I did not see it as Shiny trying to state a hard and fast rule that applies to every aspect of every marriage! It was a specific comment to support the fact that the op had every right to be upset with her dh if he was persisting in doing something that clearly really upsets her.

(Shiny I hope I haven't misunderstood. But I thought you were being very supportive to the op who was obviously very hurt and upset.)

Thanks MLS. That is exactly what I saying/meaning with the statement in question although as I typed it, I realised to my mind, anyway, that is applied to "unreasonable behavaviour" OTHER than porn-use (and "related activties" ).. because surely it IS "unreasonable" to persist in doing something questionable if it causes your partner so much upset. (And be "questionable" I obviously don't mean a watching a tv programme or similar.)

I can see why people might have taken the statement out of context because of the way NQC posted it.

Sorry - I did quote the statement out of context, although I did make clear it was from a porn-related thread.

I realised you probably did mean it for just porn, when you said it, it just was a statement that (as a general) rule, I disagreed with quite strongly. (I waver about the porn thing, tbh)

As I have said before, it is possible to be quite laid back about porn use within a realtionship until you have your self-confidence eroded and your self-respect depleted by man taking it that one step further and crossing a line. Ok so we may all draw our lines in different places but for most of us, surfing for f*ckbuddies, even just browsing for the "fun of it", would not be seen as OK, I'm fairly sure of that.

Ah, but my DH has pointed out to me the same thing other people have pointed out - regular porn sites often have lots of adverts for fuckbuddies, from those sites. Meaning that the fuckbuddy site would appear in the internet history, even though the person browsing didn't actually go there.

Of course, sometimes the one who has the problem is the one who's forever getting upset. Same as people who fuss about things that are "offensive" - it's not any kind of human right never to be offended, because some people are offended waaaay too easily, or are offended by things like women having the vote.

ANd, to bring it back on topic, if one partner is upset about another partner's porn use, it isn't always and only the porn-viewing partner who is the "bad" person who needs to change. The porn-hater may (and I am not indicating any specific MNer but speaking hypothetically) be a whiny neurotic buckethead who routinely witholds sex to punish the other partner for things like forgetting to empty the dishwasher.

Well I should hope you're not "indicating any specific Mner" MadameZ...why would you?? ... And "withholding sex because he's forgotten to empty the dishwasher"?? Where do you get this stuff from? It's not so black and white as being a porn-hater.. it's just isn't! At the risk of repeating myself, a person can become insecure about porn because of the way their partner uses it. We are human beings not robots.. we get insecure sometimes.. we even (shock! horror!) feel neurotic and may even occasinally do something akin to "whining" because we love our partners and may feel concerned what their behaviour may mean.

I'm sure this to you, brings forth visions of a pathetic crying "bucketheaded" females clinging feebly to their husbands' ankles as they try to leave.. but back in the REAL world, there are MANY situations that can cause EITHER partner to feel unhappy, insecure and in need of extra reassurance and I would go as far as to say that during the course of a long-lived relationship or marriage, spanning decades, there are quite likely to be issues involving some degree of these feeling in either or both partners at different times and for different reasons. It does NOT mean that a person is 'fussy' or "forever getting upset" about nothing or "offended too easily".. it means they need a bit of TLC to get over that phase.

You make broad statements about "types" of people MadameZ as if some are strong and assertive, while the rest and weak and pathetic. Life - and people - aren't actually like that. Most of us have the potential to feel strong sometimes and weak/upset at others and to react to different sitations/behaviour differently at different times in our lives. I read your words and get an overwhelming sense of a real lacking in empathy. Which is a shame in someone who is clearly so intelligent.

Shinyhappy" there is no reason why I would indicate a specific MNer - if I did have something to say about a specific individual I would address the remark tothem rather than hinting. I meant only not to have anyone getting in a tizzy because they thought I was having a go at them.
And yeah, sure, probably the majority of people do go through life alternating between being strong and less so, happy and unhappy etc. But have you never met any people who use their "sensitive feelings" as a weapon? Who manipulate by crying and taking offence all the time? Even if the behaviour isn't deliberately manipulative, lving with someone who is insecure and easily upset is Fcking exhausting and infuriating, particularly when the person won't seek help of any kind but insists that everything would be fine if other people would just, oh, you know, give in to the whiner all the time, modify and monitor their behaviour constantly and put the whiner's interests first... Yes, I'm using fairly extreme examples but these things do go on, just as some people are secretive about their internet usage because they are* hunting for new partners behind an existing partner's back and/or plotting a terrorist attack. Most people, believe it or not, are fairly well intentioned towards other people, partners included.

Oh Madamez for heaven's sake, now you are being amusing. How can you put about using websites to hunt for f*ckbuddies behind exisiting partners backs in same sentence as using the internet for plotting terrorist attacks?? Have you no sense of perspective?? Do you really think the former happens as seldom as the latter?

SHinyhappy: WHo knows. But the more whiny mongamy-mad would probably prefer Hubby to be plotting a terrorist attack rather than looking to get laid...