How to move on from MIL's bitch-rant with dignity and integrity

[MmeCC]

I need some advice on managing a difficult MIL/DIL relationship.

MIL launched an unexpected attack this morning about what an inadequate mother and wife I am. She refused to acknowledge that she only sees a small part of our family dynamics and couldn't possibly judge, but later on when DH set her straight on it she conceded that she doesn't actually know how we divide parenting (DH told her it's fairly split). However, she's too stubborn (and possibly narc?) to admit to me that she was wrong and/or apologise. It's not the first time she's been unbelievably rude to me, but it is the first time she's come right out and criticised the role I play in our family. She's been stocking up ammunition for quite some time and I feel utterly betrayed. I try so hard not to rise to her insidious, sneaky shit but in a way I feel vindicated because now that it's come out I know I was right all along about her sly digs (which DH didn't notice and thought I was imagining).

There's such a lot more I could add, and I don't want to drip feed, but I also think this will be long enough for an OP!

My question is about how to manage things going forward. I've wondered before if she's a narcissist - she tells everyone she's gorgeous, sometimes insists they call her "goddess", goes on ad nauseum about her birthday and counts how many cards she gets so that she can compare to my DC who was a birthday close to hers (and is 6!!)...

She's incredibly stubborn so although my DH has set her right on the crap I've received from her, I won't get an apology or any admission of wrongdoing. I have my pride and self esteem too though, and can't let someone treat me like that.

What do I do about her so that I can find a way that's liveable for me, allows me to have dignity and integrity, and allows DH and DCs to have a relationship with her?

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Just see it all ass reflection on her. Just act no more than polite.

I would echo the NC with children. I stepped back from my alcoholic, narc MIL a couple of years ago - after tap-dancing to her tune for almost 30 years. I allowed DH to take children to see her - older teens didnt bother going - but my youngest now 10 did go - and I have heard lots of hideous things about me come back. As said above DH is trained to serve her - cannot see any of it due to FOG - and therefore cannot protect DC from her. I have since put my foot and the children are not br taken to her unless they ask. They havent - but I am aware that my
boundary should be higher than this.

"foot down" not foot and

Beachcomber sorry to hear you're in a similar but reversed situation. Good that you get to see DGCs and DS though.

Well there have been developments in my situation.

I haven't seen or spoken to MIL since she laid into me. DH went out of our house to talk to her one to one the same evening (after she returned from a pre-planned day out with DCs and I didn't want to let them down by cancelling it) so I only have it on trust that he stuck up for me and set her straight (and I do trust and believe what he told me he said to her).

The plan was to have time apart then the three of us (me, DH and MIL) would get together to talk. DCs have been asking when they'll see her again and I feel bad for them missing out because they do love going on outings with her. So DH has tried to arrange a meet up but she's been difficult about agreeing when and where. In the meantime I've told DH how hurt I feel by the things she's said and how betrayed I feel that she's been collecting ammunition and bitching about me with other family members.

Now on to today, she called DH and said she doesn't think we need to meet up, we should "just admit things were said and move on". DH said no, we can't do that, I need to set you straight on some things. So she's saying OK to meeting up but wants it to be at her house without the DCs there so there will be no chance of them overhearing. (Goodness knows what we're supposed to do with DCs, we don't use babysitters yet and have already had favours from friends recently so can't ask again just yet.) DH wants her to come to our place.

So I'm actually feeling quite... pleased? relieved? something else? today because (1) the fact she wants to brush it under the carpet suggests that she's realised how bad the things she said were and (2) I now know for sure DH has my back as he has refused to just move on, and he decided that totally alone without even discussing it with me.

This feels like a small victory for me, but am I missing something? I'm going to have to learn not to be so naive and trusting and not let my guard down with her. What do I need to look out for?

Thanks all

MmeCC,

There is no victory here.

re your comment:-

"The plan was to have time apart then the three of us (me, DH and MIL) would get together to talk. DCs have been asking when they'll see her again and I feel bad for them missing out because they do love going on outings with her. So DH has tried to arrange a meet up but she's been difficult about agreeing when and where. In the meantime I've told DH how hurt I feel by the things she's said and how betrayed I feel that she's been collecting ammunition and bitching about me with other family members.

Now on to today, she called DH and said she doesn't think we need to meet up, we should "just admit things were said and move on". DH said no, we can't do that, I need to set you straight on some things.Now on to today, she called DH and said she doesn't think we need to meet up, we should "just admit things were said and move on". DH said no, we can't do that, I need to set you straight on some things. So she's saying OK to meeting up but wants it to be at her house without the DCs there so there will be no chance of them overhearing".

Your time apart should be permanent, not just temporary. You are not dealing with an emotionally healthy relative here, far from it so your plan is fatally flawed. If your DH still wants a relationship with his mother after what she has said about you then that is up to him but it does not automatically follow that you and your children should be further subjected to her, especially after what she has said about you as their mother.

She has also moved the goalposts consistently here re meeting; first she is difficult about the whole thing then states that you do not need to meet at all, just say that things were said and move on. Clearly from that alone she will never accept any responsibility for her actions here. Then she suggests a meeting at her house.

I would not agree to any such meeting and your DH is in no position either to be able to stand up to her in her presence; you'll be both walking into her lions den. This meeting and on her turf too will likely go very badly very quickly. If you do meet her (and I strongly suggest that you do not you are going to have to be prepared to leave the very moment it starts to really kick off).

The problem here also is that you are trying to use "normal" rules of familial engagement on someone who remains and is dysfunctional so unreasonable and inflexible towards you as both a couple and as individuals. Its her way or no way as far as she is concerned and you MmeCC are really of no consequence to her at all.

Your DH trying to set her straight on some things will be a waste of time because she will not want to hear it. Anything he says no matter how nicely put will be taken as an attack on her and she will act accordingly. You simply cannot reason with unreasonable and emotionally unhealthy people.

My earlier counsel to you still stands:-
"I would not want your children to see MIL either because your DH has not been able to see the dysfunctional behaviours from his mother till recently and thought you were imagining it. He has grown up with her and her conditioning and regards her behaviours as "normal". He could very much be in his own FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) re her as well. She trained him to serve her and he still wants her approval on some level".

If his mother is too toxic/difficult for you to deal with, its the same deal for your children as well. That's a good rule of thumb to go by here as well.

MmeCC

You should realise by now that it is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

I would not have her set foot in your home either. Your DH may well crumble in her presence because he is afraid of her and still seeks her approval on some level. The fact that she wants to brush it under the carpet simply means that she still wants to brush it under the carpet.

You would not have tolerated one iota of this from a friend, your disordered of thinking mother in law is no different.

Attila, thanks, I really appreciate you taking the time to share your insight. It all just feels so alien to me, to make a decision to cut off from a family member or put distance between us. I never thought I'd be in the situation of looking at that.

I feel like I have to show a bit of willing to meet up, DH feels like he's been put in an awkward position and point blank refusal on my part to see her would come across to him as forcing a choice between me and her. I also want to sit there and hear what she has to say now. I'm hoping she'll reveal to DH what she's really like, but I know that's possibly a false hope.

In any case, I'm going to refuse to go on any more holidays with her, or spend any real time with her. What she said can't be unsaid.

The only people I've discussed it with IRL are my own parents and they are It's very helpful to have MN for advice and a sounding board, I do appreciate your input just might take some time to come round to the idea of not having anything to do with her.

Please please listen to what Attila is saying. Don't go to her house. Don't agree to meet up. She's still holding all the cards and it's all on her terms. You're weak in this equation because you're healthy and nice and your perceptions of relationships are "normal".

Put the breaks on for now, you can tell DH you might be prepared to meet up but not yet. He has no right to expect anything of you in relation to this unpleasant woman, now or ever.

Read Toxic Inlaws as soon as you can. The relief I wasn't alone and my MIL is purely a type and not a manipulative genius nearly made me cry when I read it. In fact she's actually a deeply messed up combination of several types of toxic people who herself had awful relationships with both her mother and mother in law. It also gave me a hugely valuable insight into DHs relationship with her and just how complicated it all is for him.

I have a good friend who's been NC with her MIL since the mask slipped during friend's wedding day and she happily sends her DH and DC off for the duty visit to his parents a couple of times a year. She's not worried about them being horrible to her because her DH doesn't ever leave the DC alone with his parents and he's well aware of how they really are.

But from the child's perspective, god how I wish my parents had cut contact with my mum's parents as the poison eventually spread from my grandmother to us and she went from bitching about my dad for decades to also bitching about my mum and taking wildly against one of my siblings and me from time to time. I know my dad always said he was proud of my mum for continuing to try and have a relationship with her, despite the endless shit, and that it was a good example to set us.

He was so very wrong. The toll it took on my mum has been immense. No grandparents is a lot better than horrible ones. The example I would have appreciated was seeing her stand up for herself, know she was better than to be treated so appallingly and protect us all from being affected by it.

I know she's spoken to DH about it and her regrets and it's helped him get some clarity about his own family dynamic. DM was an only child which brings its own complications as she was my grandmother's only family. But we'd all rather have been without her than have to absorb her hate and if she'd lived to see any of us have our own children there's no way she'd have got within miles of the next generation. She wasn't all bad but the negative and dysfunction outweighed everything else. Protect yourself and protect your children. Don't rush into anything. Remember your DH needs to prioritise his owl family now, you and your DC.

Agree with PPs. To someone like your MIL, normal healthy relationship styles are simply weaknesses to be exploited. Things like apologising. MIL will never properly apologise for the foul tirade she launched against you. She will say things like "I'm sorry you feel that way" which is no apology at all and can be translated as "I'm sorry I got caught, now I need to get back in control". She is determined to sweep the incident under the rug and will use a wide range of techniques and tactics to achieve that.

She is not going to change her behaviour. She is capable of being on her "best behaviour" for a while, until you relent. Then she will go right back to the harmful and bullying behaviour. That is what you have witnessed.

It sucks OP and you do need to think in the longer term what you actually want from the situation.

It sounds like you and your family spend far too much too me with MIL, try to avoid and limit seeing her as much as possible.

There is absolutely no reason to spend time with someone who doesn't like you.

*far too much time

Thank you, this is all helpful.

She was so damn nice for the first few years! And still is to pretty much everyone, if a little overbearing. I've been trying to think when it changed. I think it was when I was heavily pregnant with eldest DC, she expected us to sit in the car for hours just to spend Christmas Day at her sister's place. DH said "No, MmeCC comes first, we are not spending hours in the car" completely unbidden by me but that was the first time he stood up to her and I think it might have started to unravel after that.

Going to re-read everything and keep thinking on it. I won't commit to anything in a hurry. She's off on holiday any day now for a few days at least, so it's going to be parked for a while anyway.

Really gutted how it's all blown up but also a bit relieved that I know I'm being "watched" to get fodder for the bitching etc. Forewarned is forearmed I guess? Although it's a bit late now

There is also no reason to spend time with
MIL's sister, that's a bit of an odd dynamic (I suspect they enable each other) just decline almost all invitations and send DH along instead.

So... you were right and I was wrong. MIL's suggestion to admit things were said and move on was definitely not any concession on her part that she might have been in the wrong. DH invited her round to ours for a discussion to try to clear the air. So we met up 2 nights ago.

She's essentially maintaining her position but DH kept at it and asked her to accept that she was wrong to say I don't do enough for the family etc. She kind of accepted it - I think it was more acknowledgement of what he was saying rather than acceptance of what he was saying. DH thought it was all done and dusted then but I said she had seemingly accepted what he'd said but that doesn't resolve things for me as I haven't had anything like an apology now that she knows she was wrong. He practically had to wring an apology out of her and it was said in a sarcastic tone "I apologise, if that's what you want" under duress and after demanding that I apologise for two things. I didn't offer up any apology to her, I stand by what I said and she expected me to apologise for stating facts. I said sorry to DH for making the mistake of turning to MIL for support instead of keeping it between ourselves, and I made it clear to MIL that I didn't feel I owed her any apology.

So now I realise I'm still in the weaker position and I think all I can do is keep away from her. DH has said to me that we won't spend Christmas with her, so that is some reassurance. (We had said we were spending it at home this year but would welcome anyone who wanted to join us, she immediately started saying that she would be doing Christmas at hers for everyone, trampling over our plans and invitations. This was prior to all this stuff being said. Well now we'll be spending it at home as planned but without her. Result.)

I'll have to take it one step at a time, but thanks everyone for your help and advice. I'm going to go back over it, and find those books and things that people have referred to.

So now I realise I'm still in the weaker position

No, no, no, OP. That is not the case at all.

I'd been thinking of you and hoping things were better, I'm sorry to see she's still being a nightmare.

Does it help to know that without in any way minimising how painful and stressful this is for you, her character and behaviour is in no way unique and the fucked up dynamic is definitely very fucked up but also a known acknowledged thing?

I know DH finds it comforting/affirming to know his mother in particular is merely a type, and there are proven ways of dealing with people like that and mitigate the damage they do. It also means he's not responsible for her being this way, she'd be the same with anyone, and it's not his fault. He's also not capable of "fixing it" as he didn't create any of it.

Simply knowing you're not alone is worth something.

Read Toxic Inlaws, prepare to exclaim aloud and possibly to cry. I found the painful recognition of what was going on a combination of distressing, comforting and liberating!

There's a lot of wisdom on this thread. Attila speaks so much sense. It's good you have a plan for a lovely Christmas at your home, enjoy it. And for now at least, just keep your distance. Remember how difficult this must be for DH, it's his mother and she's a complete witch, that must be awful. But you sound like a good strong team.

Keep chatting here if it's helpful

Oh no, you’re in the strongest position imaginable!

You were victorious actually! You got her to come to you and a non-apology was dragged out of her.

Don’t see her, keep the dc away from her and be happy.

H seemingly has your back, that’s a relief!

Atilla is my dearest MN friend and I know she walks this walk as well as talks it, you can trust her, she’s one of the most very special people in the world whose advice I seek in my own struggles.

Just be very short with her from now on. Say nothing more, polite or otherwise, than you need to. She will know that you are displeased and you won't have to put in much effort.