My brother threatening to remove child support - advice if poss..

[miffytherabbit1974]

Hello folks. Before I write anymore, I just wanted to point out that I’m a man and normally post on the anti-MLM threads, so these parts of Mumsnet are a bit out of my usual zones. Just as an aside, I’m a gay guy, without children, who’s been in a relationship for ten years.

I have had a fairly unpleasant falling out with my parents over the way my brother is behaving in regard to his daughter and ex-wife. If it’s ok, I’ll try my best to explain. Also, I’ll use pseudonyms so as not to identify anyone.

My brother (Jason) and his ex-wife (Denise) divorced about ten years ago, when their daughter (Alice) was about three years old. Including their married years, they were together for around eight years or thereabouts. Their relationship wasn’t ever really in the realm of “amazingly happy.” Both of them have since been fairly candid at various times as to why they were together. Jason, really because he didn’t want to be lonely, and Denise because she very much wanted a child and she was moving in to her thirties and the biological clock and all that. They have both said it wasn’t a love-match.

I love my mum to bits (she’s my mum after all) but, being really honest, I wouldn’t have wanted her to be my mother-in-law. My mum (and my dad, though he is not as publicly outspoken) have, what they would call, Very High Standards. They are both unbelievably tidy and organised and methodical (all of the things I’m not!) and they live in a very, very nice house with not a pin out of place. It is like a show home, but not very inviting or welcoming. Suffice it to say, that Denise could never do anything right in the eyes of my mum, simply because Denise isn’t particularly tidy or neat etc. However Denise is a very good mum in all the ways that really matter - loving, measured, thoughtful etc. I think if Denise had been Mother Theresa, my mum would have holes somewhere to pick at. So, complicating things are my parents.

My brother is the golden child, in the sense that he followed my dad down the same career path, he’s been successful in his work and he has a very income indeed. If you measure success in life by these metrics, then he’s most definitely been successful. On the down side, Jason’s also very tight, extraordinarily self-centred (he does nothing but talk at you about himself, his interests, his feelings etc.) Again, I love my brother very much, but he’s not easy to like.

Sorry for waffling on… to cut to the problem, my brother has a new girlfriend, which in itself is not unusual. However, this weekend Jason was due to introduce Alice to his new girlfriend, and Denise got cold feet and said that the meeting would have to be swapped for next weekend. Consequently Alice didn’t meet his girlfriend and my brother was pretty angry with Denise about it. This all came out during a telephone call with my mum this afternoon. She then said that Jason has threatened to go to court and have Denise’s and Alice’s maintenance (I’m not sure if this the correct phrase - it includes the child support he must pay) reduced. I couldn’t believe my brother was threatening to do this, as Denise has not got two brass farthings to rub together, and it’s frankly amazing that Jason has gotten away with having to pay as little as he does (I think he pays around three hundred pounds a month - which is not a lot when compared with his income.) I was very candid with my mother that I felt it was morally wrong to do this over a disagreement about access, and my mum said “Well if Denise is going to petty, then why shouldn’t Jason be petty?”

My mum has taken offence at my pointing out how wrong it feels (in my view) for my brother to do this. I don’t have much money myself (and I don’t mind not having a lot of money, as long as I have enough to be happy and get by) and my mum, dad and brother don’t ever have to worry about money so I doubt they think there is anything wrong in holding someone to ransom in this way. If any folks have the time or inclination and are able to give their view on this, and where they stand, I would be extremely grateful, as I am very much being made to feel as though I have no right to believe that my brother’s behaviour is completely out of order. Many, many thanks in advance.

I think your brother is incredibly out of order here. Perhaps he does have the right to be annoyed about his daughter not meeting new partner. But he isnt taking his fruatrations out on his ex he is taking it out on his daughter!.

I assume (since you say shes a good mum :))the money he gives his ex goes towards her caring for their daughter which means if he gives less just to be petty then its his daughter he is being petty against and her that will also suffer.

If he is paying as little as you say it is likely the minimum he has to by law and he will not gave any success in getting it reduced. There are on-line calculators she can use to see how much he should be paying.

She should not be restricting access to his daughter, she does not have that right. What she did was wrong. She does not get to choose when he introduces their daughter to anyone. If she continues down this path of trying to control his time with his daughter then he can take her to court for access rights. She should be very careful. Her daughter has the right to a relationship with her father.

Do you have contact with her? If you have a good relationship with get you may want yo talk with get.

You have to continue to make the bleeding obvious point to your brother and parents that this money is to support his child/their grandchild - to provide her with a warm comfortable home, with the necessities of life, and also the luxuries if he can afford them. Denise's behaviour (which I agree is poor on this occasion) does not mean that his daughter needs less support.

I'm with you. By hurting Denise, your brother is in effect hurting his own daughter. It is his daughter who will have a lower standard of living as a direct result of withholding funds. Potentially the situation could spiral too with both adults being on very bad terms.

For Alice's sake, your brothers best bet is behaving like a mature adult, taking on board that alice/GF meeting is a massive step and offering reassurance and taking things one step at a time.

Your brother is lucky to have you, a balanced voice of reason.

I don't understand how going to court to get his maintenance reduced would even work? He has to pay a certain amount worked out by his income so no court would allow this! Has has to by law pay a certain percentage of his wage, they aren't going to turn around and say "oh yes she was very petty let's reduce his maintenance by 100 a month" 🙄
He sounds like an arsehole.

The only way I could see him being able to reduce his payment is if he is paid as a company director, or in a similar (self employed?) manner. I guess he could reduce his income and funnel money some other way to reduce his earnings for CMS.

It wouldn't reflect well on him and in all likelihood this is probably just venting because she changed the weekend (which is also pretty shoddy tbh) and likely not something he'll actually bother doing.

Thank you to you all for responding, and for being so straight-up. The whole episode has been pretty upsetting, and it’s dredged up long-buried family stuff that is usually left well alone. There’s a couple of things I forgot to mention in my first post, because I have a habit of rambling off on tangents. Jason, my brother, usually gets to be the one who specifies when he wants to see Alice, and, as a loose rule, Denise tends to fit in with his requirements. This is due in no small part to the fact that he works full time. Regarding Denise, I wasn’t exaggerating when I mentioned that she has not got two brass farthings to rub together, and Alice is very, very much Denise’s entire world. Whilst there’s no doubt it was wrong for her to back out of the access arrangement, I can hazard a guess that this might’ve happened because Denise is worried that someone else might compete for Alice’s attentions or affections. It’s might also be worth adding that Jason has had several girlfriends over the years, and Denise has always been fine eventually, once everyone has become used to the changes.

From my own perspective, what has been painful is the realisation that my mum actually thinks it is ok to threaten someone’s welfare (I’m as taken aback by this as much as the actual threat made by my brother.) This is in no small part to the way in which my mum reacted - she really was pretty blasé in her response that, in her view, Denise’s “pettiness” could be combatted by a more extreme kind of pettiness from my brother’s side. When I pressed her on this (I said I honestly couldn’t believe she would ever think that threatening someone with taking essential income away could be seen as right or okay, and that Denise’s and Alice’s maintenance had nothing to do with the issue over this weekend), she said that “it was only a threat” - as though that made it ok?

I have seen “hints” of weird thinking by my parents before, but not to this degree. When we went there for Christmas, Jason came up and my dad said he would probably never marry again because he “got his fingers burnt so badly by Denise.” When I questioned him about this, my dad gave the round-about answer that he, my mum and and Jason felt that Denise had somehow fleeced my brother they were divorced. It’s worth adding at this point that Denise did not stay in the marital home with Alice, and received, aside from Alice’s support, around £40,000. To my mind, it seems that Jason had a pretty easy time of it. Denise is not entitled to any of Jason’s pensions, future investments or the house. It has been pretty upsetting to watch Denise and Alice struggle in a tiny, badly maintained rental bungalow struggling to make ends meet on next to nothing. Sometimes the way my parents talk about Denise, it’s hard not to come to the conclusion that they are extremely resentful of her, despite the fact that she has brought up a really wonderful girl in Alice. Everyone is biased with their own nieces/nephews etc. but she is a very, very well-rounded, bright, well-mannered and fun kid. I for one am very proud of her.

Thank you again for the advice and interest in this issue with my family.

Your brother is within his rights to take the matter to court if he thinks he should be paying less maintenance. The same way as his ex wife would be entitled to do the same if she thought the amount should be increased. I don't think you should be over involved in this.

Your brother sounds a charmer!

Who decided how much maintenance he should pay? Him, her, them or the courts?

The vast majority of children living in poverty in the U.K. do so because the non-resident parent (almost always the father) refuses to pay maintenance. This is recognised as a form of child abuse, albeit financially. I find talking in terms of poverty and child abuse makes it more difficult for fathers to whine. Gingerbread has some very good statistics if you want to argue the case.

In your shoes, I would focus on cultivating a relationship with your niece. If her mother is as good as you say, it's unlikely the child will continue a relationship with your brother or your parents after she's old enough to make the choice for herself.

Your brother and parents are dicks.
(You're lovely, but be careful how this could impact your relationship with them, as they seem to be quite vindictive)

Hello again Peeps.

Just wanted to say thanks again for the kind replies and to reply to a couple of points.

Viviennemary - you are quite correct in your advice that I not over involve myself in this. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think this is as much to do with how my parents have reacted as it is to my brother's threats, and I need to sit quietly and think carefully as to why I feel the way I do. There is buried stuff wrapped up in all of this and it is quite on-the-mark of you to heed distance and caution.

rollonthesummer- I am not certain how the amount of maintenance was established, or under what circumstances, simply because it was such a long time ago. What I do know is that my sister-in-law was more laid back (perhaps almost too laid back in a funny way) when it came to setting appropriate 'demands' over the financial side/maintenance, and, whether rightly or wrongly, it almost gave the impression that money wasn't an important factor. Her circumstances are no where near as rosy as they were a few years ago - as, I guess, is the case for many of us following years of stagnant wages and austerity.

SisterhoodisPowerful - Your very well made points made me sit up and pay attention. Thank you for pointing Gingerbread up for me too. This is tied into why it felt so upsetting, really. I know Denise struggles, and she is just not the demanding type - which makes my brother's seem even more callous. As others have pointed out in this thread, by threatening to punish Denise in this way, he is also threatening to punish Alice. I'm afraid when my mum said "it was just a threat", it cut no ice, and actually made me feel angry, because the power is in the threat as much as in the action. I also fear that your prediction regarding Alice and her view of my parents might already be coming true as she no longer wishes to go through to my parents. This was noticeable to me at Christmas when my mum made more than one unkind remark about Alice's weight (she has made these remarks to me about my weight for some time, but I'm 43, not 13.) It doesn't necessarily engender affection from Alice towards my mum and dad.

OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow- Thank you for nice words. And yes, you are right and I need to step away and just focus on making the relationship I have with my niece as good as it can be.

Thanks all again. You have all really helped me to get some perspective on this. :)