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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Marriage, FWB, and a moral dilemma

51 replies

MadMax79 · 30/07/2017 00:47

Asking for a friend, of course. :)

TL;DR: My wife and I agreed to convert our relationship into a friends-with-benefits arrangement and are struggling to find the right balance between continuing with the arrangement versus stopping it. Help!

The long story:

Let's say my wife of 17 years dumped me because she felt bored in the relationship, as in not having felt any love and passion any more for a considerable amount of time. She felt constrained by having to be together with me. I was devastated, but on the next day, I came up with an idea.

I asked her if she would be willing to convert this into a friends-with-benefits arrangement instead of breaking up completely in order to explore whether we were just in need of feeling free again, kind of as a last resort. That way, we could possibly get together again if the situation changed -- or not, if it turned out we were actually done with each other. This was possible because we don't live in the same city. She agreed. So we agreed mutually that we would not ask or feel obliged to answer any questions about the time not spent together, we would not be together any more, but we would still spend occasional holidays together every few weeks to have sex and explore if we still liked each other, and we would not to tell anyone about this arrangement or experiment.

I suggested this arrangement for three reasons: 1. I still loved her and wanted to be with her, and this was the only chance of getting her back. I wouldn't want to give up such a long marriage lightly. 2. I, too, felt the need to be free and sleep with other women, but I would have never done it without permission. 3. We wouldn't tell anyone because we knew this would be socially frowned upon, and people would either try to convince us to get back together or split up completely.

While still sad, I also quickly became excited and thought about the new possibilities. After all, I hadn't touched anyone else for more than 17 years. I quickly started sleeping with other women and enjoyed it quite a bit (though I have to say that sex with my wife is really good in comparison with my other, new experiences). There were a few one-night-stands and two women with whom I slept about every two weeks. It was fun and easy, and it was clear to everybody involved that this was only for fun. I wasn't so sure about the first one since she actually wasn't really my type. But good enough to make me feel alive. The second one was a few years older and more experienced than me, and we quickly started enjoying each other immensely. She was married, too, and I was her sidekick. I told her I wouldn't assume any responsibility for her marriage, and she said she would find somebody else if I didn't do it. So I went with it. It was clear that this was merely physical and perhaps a bit of a chat afterwards, but nothing more. It got better every time, and there is quite some sympathy now.

At the same time, I could feel that my wife was growing closer to me again. We laughed more together on the phone. Our holidays were full of enjoyable experiences that brought us closer together. It felt almost like being together again. As per the arrangement, I did not tell her anything and was not expecting her to tell me anything. I'm quite good at keeping things separate. After all, it was irrelevant to what we had. I enjoyed this development but was still cautious.

At some point she revealed to me that she had taken a look at the flesh market and hadn't seen anything that was worth pursuing. According to her, there were only idiots and losers, which was increasing my market value in a way. I wasn't sure if that was a compliment or not. I felt a bit bad that I was sleeping with others and she wasn't. She really shouldn't have told me. Anyway, I took comfort in the fact that she could have done it, and it was her own fault if she didn't.

After a while, she asked me, half jokingly, if we should move together. I spat out my water and told her that this was hardly possible since we were technically separated. I asked her if she still wanted to be separated or if she had changed her mind. She said she wasn't sure and asked me what I wanted. I said I'd rather keep it separate for now because being together at this point would only lead us back to where we started. I told her we should rather continue with the arrangement for a bit in order not to kill this tiny but growing little flower before it was stable enough to be re-potted. She agreed, but then asked me if I was only saying this because I had somebody lined up I was eager to fuck in the next month but hadn't got the chance yet. I truthfully denied that, but I did get a bit of a bad conscience because I did not want to sleep with other women if she didn't approve of me doing it. So I decided to end all my extramarital activities in order not to cheat on her. After all, I wanted to be with her, and I didn't want to jeopardise that.

As a consequence, I called the first of my two fuck buddies immediately and told her that I wouldn't be able to see her any more because of these recent developments. She was a bit disappointed but said I was making the right decision. But then I thought about stopping that second, much more enjoyable relationship as well, and something told me that this would be the wrong decision. So I held back and started thinking about it some more.

On the same evening, my wife called me again and said she felt very lonely, whether I was with her or not. She wanted to fall in love again, if possible with me, if not perhaps with somebody else, but she just couldn't enforce it. That kind of hurt me as I had previously thought we were on a good path. She said we were, but it still didn't feel perfect. Well, I was glad I hadn't cancelled that other relationship yet.

Now I am in this dilemma, or actually, two trade-offs. The first is a rational dilemma: should I end my casual relationship, which I enjoy quite a bit, for the uncertain prospects of getting back together with my wife? The second one is a moral dilemma: should I end my casual relationship because I promised my wife I wouldn't want to extend the separation just to get the opportunity to fuck somebody I had been trying to crack up? Technically, that's not the case, but I'm not sure if this would also extend to the case where I have already been sleeping with somebody and would want to extend that beyond the current point. Then again, she doesn't seem to be able to make up her mind. I'd like to support her with that, but I'm afraid I would only re-instate the original situation if I gave in and fully belonged to her again. Something makes me think that I shouldn't even give her the feeling that I was not sleeping with anybody. Perhaps it would be even better to induce some jealousy such that she makes up her mind and wants to keep me. Of what use is an arrangement like that, after all, if it remains inconsequential to our mutual perceptions?

Any thoughts on how to proceed?

OP posts:
pullingmyhairout1 · 30/07/2017 15:51

She's not that into you. You are an option. Leave.

indigox · 30/07/2017 15:51

That sounds about right, and it doesn't feel very good. The question is, what consequences do I derive from that? Should I swallow that, continue my self-improvement, and try to get her back? If so, how? Or should I tell her to find her luck elsewhere because it wouldn't be sustainable in the long run? It's not like I don't have other options. Or should I set an ultimatum as suggested by somebody else?

There's absolutely no way I would be considering staying with someone who only wanted me because they couldn't do any better. Why would you want to be with someone who thought that? I'd imagine you'd start building some resentment towards her when things inevitably go wrong again.

MadMax79 · 30/07/2017 16:04

To HerOtherHalf:

It's a pity you still seem to love or want her because life is too short for all this shit.

Yeah, I guess it would be easier if I didn't love her. As long as there is a chance of getting her back, I will. But I'm not making that decision lightly; I'm not stupid or clingy. If I realise the odds are much against me, I'll give her up immediately.

If i were you, the question I'd be asking myself is what has changed that your relationship would have a significantly better chance of success second time round? I don't see an answer to that in the information you've provided so my gut feel is you'd just be prolonging the slow death of your marriage.

While this is a possibility, I don't think it's accurate. As I mentioned, there were a few issues that led to the emotional disconnect: we were both heavily invested in our work, leading to mutual disappointment, but more on her part than mine. There is also the physical component. I think I have fixed both. I am in better shape now than when we got together, and I now have the job I dreamt of for so long. It's such a pity I sacrificed my marriage for it, and I would possibly undo that if I could, but that's how things happened. Anyway, since I have that job now, it's all easier, and I am able to spend more time on other things. It's just hard to believe for her that this change is sustainable. I seriously think it is, though. So I'm inclined to say that we'd have a better ground for a good relationship now, minus the things that happened in the meantime, obviously.

As someone not shackled by any emotional investment in this i would be saying sack her off altogether, including the fwb part, and move on. I appreciate it is not as easy for you but seriously, why would you want somebody back that dumped you so they could be free to screw around?

I've thought of that, but I'm not quite there yet. Not as long as there is no particular person she dumped me for, and not as long as I don't have anyone this would be worth doing it for, and not as long as both of us have done fair play in the sense of being upfront about everything. She could have just cheated but she didn't. It's that quality I admire a lot (and share with her), even if it's hard to lose against somebody who may not even exist.

OP posts:
MadMax79 · 30/07/2017 16:07

I appreciate everybody's comments!

To sum up, here are my questions:

  1. Should I set an ultimatum?
  2. Should I make up my mind and sack her? (Also considering it's been 17 years and she's great and I have improved.)
  3. Should I tell her that she should fuck around as well to get to a faster decision?
  4. Should I tell her to see a psychologist?
  5. Should I abandon my enjoyable sidekick and submit completely and hope she'll make up her mind? (Hint: I think I'd suffer more if I did.)
  6. Should I make it clearer that I am using my powers and she should consider using hers as well?

There seem to be some contradictory opinions about the best way forward in this thread.

My plan so far from what I gathered:

  1. I will tell her clearly that we still have this agreement going on, with all that it implies, and that she should have no illusions about what that entails or doesn't entail
  2. I will also signal to her that I would rather be with her completely, but I will not get together with her or change the current situation before she commits completely and is sure about that.
  3. I will also signal to her that I will be looking not just for distraction but possibly more if there is somebody whose market value minus transaction costs of switching are higher than hers from now on (i.e., serious dating). That way, I'm not setting an ultimatum, but it's kind of a natural way to show her that she shouldn't wait too long or I'll be gone.

Do you think that might help? I think I could live reasonably well with that solution and would not be missing out on any opportunities. It would also not be an act of throwing away those 17 years lightly. Thoughts?

OP posts:
Josuk · 30/07/2017 16:43

OP - I know you are struggling with the choice and your various options. But it's also a lot of overthinking. At least in the way you describe the options and steps.

Isn't it all simpler? All you can really do is ask if she is really ready to try it all again, with you.

None of you can predict if it works out or not. All you can decide now is to try or not.
If she says she is ready - you can't question and overanalyse that. She won't give you guarantees that it's work out. No one can.

As to your other women at this point. You are not doing anything wrong. You are doing what you agreed you both can do. So - no reason to feel bad about it.
Also - no reason to tell your wife - as she explicitly told you NOT to tell her. It's understandable, on her side, btw. It's easier for her not to think about you with other people, even if she told you to go ahead and date.
Your older FWB - she is doing it with her eyes open, and doing what she wants. She doesn't expect you to whisk her away on a white horse. Once you disappear, she'll find another man to fill your position. So - don't overthink that one either.

Basically, from my POV - you, OP, need to decide if you are going to give it a try with your W when she says she is ready.
And she seems to be getting to the point of being ready. But when she says it again, if you are still questioning whether you can trust her - it's a sign. A sign that you might have moved on and don't want it anymore.

NotAnotherNoughtiesTune · 30/07/2017 16:54

It's all about sex with you really.

If you were like that in your relationship no wonder your wife wanted to call time for a bit.

You talk about time alone with your wife but how about a month with no sex with no woman to think about you want.

Not your wife, not your duck buddy you don't normally go for or the one who is married and cheating so you thought as she's so it anyway it's cool for you to be her fuck buddy.

NotAnotherNoughtiesTune · 30/07/2017 16:56

Oops posted too soon. It might sound like I'm giving you a character assassination and I don't mean to but you are either wanting complete and utter commitment straight away not a gradual easing in process or to fuck as often as you like.

Does anything like faith, self reflection or me time appeal to you?

Sex is great but it's not that great.

NotAnotherNoughtiesTune · 30/07/2017 16:58

But like PPs it also sounds like she's holding onto you as the grass isn't greener yet you aren't exactly what she wants.

I think she's hoping upon hope you'd actively state you've not slept with someone else so she feels you are devoted to her. As you haven't, she's disgruntled.

I think you aren't what each other are looking for anymore. Sorry.

SandyY2K · 30/07/2017 17:03

If she saw a counsellor using the person centred approach, it would be about what your wife wants... A counsellor shouldn't tell a client what to do.

They guide them on a journey of self discovery to get the best outcome for themselves.

I think I understand what you mean about extending the FWB arrangement... She means if there was someone you didn't manage to hook up with in that time.... But I don't see the point in getting back together if she's not all in.

Much as you lover, I'd suggest you think carefully about continuing in a marriage where your wife just can't find anyone better and decides to make do with you.

That will just erode your self esteem and bring about insecurity.

I'm not sure about flirting on the street TBH. I tend to think people approaching me on the street randomly are a bit mad.

What a weird situation you're in. I find it really interesting, but that's because 'people' are my thing.

If a client appears confused, a counsellor might suggest spending time alone to figure things out, but they shouldn't advise them to make a certain choice.

MadMax79 · 30/07/2017 17:21

Thanks, Josuk.
Interesting perspective. In my previous plan, I wasn't considering the possibility that she might feel pressured and give in quite soon. If that happened, it probably wouldn't feel right to me yet because I would still suspect her to be looking for somebody better. In that case I'd prefer continuing the separation until I am sure about her attitude. But of course I'd risk she'd be put off by that or be successful in her search in the meantime. You are suggesting to ask her and give it a try if she says yes. But just yesterday, she said both that we should consider moving together AND that she wanted to fall in love again, no matter whether with me or somebody else and that, while there was a positive development, she was still not completely sure if it was the right thing to do. It just doesn't sound very convincing yet. So perhaps I should just let it run for some time, keep the current status, and see if there is a positive development until I can at some point believe that her signal is credible (whatever the signal is).

To NotAnotherNoughtiesTune:
I guess those activities are a combination of 1) increasing my self-worth by proving to myself that I have some market value, 2) providing incentives to her to make up her mind, 3) curiosity/trying things I haven't tried for 17 years, and 4) an expectation that she might be able to make up her mind if she was trying out other things, but I could only let that happen if I was doing similar things as well. It's not all about sex for me, but if I went for real dates instead, that might mean trouble. As for your questions, I am currently in the process of self-reflection by thinking about what I want and how to achieve this. It's complex. I do agree that she's not quite there yet, so there is no use in getting together with her immediately. You may be right that we are not meant for each other any more, but it's better to suffer some longer to be sure than to make a big mistake by letting her go although she would have been worth pursuing.

OP posts:
NotAnotherNoughtiesTune · 30/07/2017 17:28

I agree that sex does make it simpler whereas if you got in a relationship with another woman it would mean you were over.

I think it's a shame you have low self worth and that she is willing to string you along. I feel if the relationship was that good for her, she'd know by now if she wanted it back if that makes sense?

OhDearMuriel · 30/07/2017 17:33

....."So perhaps I should just let it run for some time, keep the current status, and see if there is a positive development until I can at some point believe that her signal is credible (whatever the signal is)."

That's what I would do, if the end prize was really worth it (which she very obviously is to you), but it's a long long journey and it will fuck with your head in the meantime, but you will always know that you did Everything to try and save your marriage, and who knows it could have a very positive outcome for you both.
I take my hat off to you for your determination, it's not easy.

OhDearMuriel · 30/07/2017 17:34

NotAnother It really can take a while for people to recognise what they have lost.

SandyY2K · 30/07/2017 17:43

I'm not one for ultimatums personally.

I would simply state my expectations and a time frame, after that I would simply detach and move on.

I do think you both living in different cities doesn't help either... That's while you were together I mean.

I would encourage her to seek therapy, but don't force her.

Do what's right for you and you don't need to stop seeing your sidekick. Your wife opened this up, so you've nothing to feel bad about.

MistressDeeCee · 30/07/2017 17:49

Wife wanted out - so she's out. I don't see the issue re the left behind partner finding others to be/sleep with. Life isn't a fairy story and we also dont get to rule other people and stick them on hold until or unless we find another partner - that's not on. Not your fault OP that your W didnt find anyone else - or more likely I think, got taken in by future faking men and has realised the world out there isnt always what its cracked up to be. I do think the FWB thing should stop. Only because your W is now feeling wistful re at least having had you there before. & you dont want what she wants. Also you could get back with her, then someone else comes along and she wants out again. Albeit same could be said for you. Let your wife go. She is where she wanted to be and sad as it is that didnt work out, its not your fault or your responsibility. You suggested the FWB arrangement so you wouldnt lose her entirely but the other side of that coin is you feeling and being free to be with others. I guess she knows that now. If you really wanted her back you'd not be in this dilemma anyway so its all a moot point really.

RidingWindhorses · 30/07/2017 17:50

What it boils down to is this. Either you still love your wife enough to give it a go irrespective of where it may end up or you don't. I don't think you do. The fact that you're unwilling to give up fucking the FB shows that. Equally, either your wife loves you enough to say so and ask you to reunite wholeheartedly or she doesn't. I don't think she does.

She's come back faute de mieux and you're weighing her against a FB.

This is not going to work. Extended overanalysis will not change that.

OhDearMuriel · 30/07/2017 17:52

I don't know how long this has been going on, but when you and only you are ready you will take the right course of action.

MistressDeeCee · 30/07/2017 18:00

You also seem to talk a lot about others, for 2 people who agreed "no questions asked". Its muddying the waters and needs ro stop. Tell your W where she stands and leave it at that.

MistressDeeCee · 30/07/2017 18:00

You also seem to talk a lot about others, for 2 people who agreed "no questions asked". Its muddying the waters and needs ro stop. Tell your W where she stands and leave it at that.

RidingWindhorses · 30/07/2017 18:00

If you really wanted her back you'd not be in this dilemma anyway so its all a moot point really

Exactly.

MadMax79 · 30/07/2017 18:12

To NotAnotherNoughtiesTune:
I don't want to portray myself as the victim here. She had good reasons to lose the connection to me, partly because of my own misguided priorities. I am very aware that both of us caused the situation, not just her. I should also point out that we are not talking about a really long time period here. It was just three months since she told me she'd leave me and we made that agreement. We had a total of five weeks of holidays together since then, which were all really good. But also long intermittent breaks where we would lose that connection again. I hope that puts it more into perspective.

To SandyY2K:
Thanks, I'll seriously consider the option of asking her to see a counsellor with a person-centered approach. Are you a counsellor or do you have first-hand experience as a client? That might give me some more assurance to go that route. As for continuing the whole thing: I seem to keep getting contradictory advice here from you and others, but most people seem to think that the advice in your most recent post is the right way to go (see also OhDearMuriel's post). So I guess I'll continue with the FWB for a while until I'm sure we are completely on the same page or it's over, without a bad conscience in the meantime. The main thing I needed to get straight was whether I could continue seeing other people at this point if I wanted to without having a bad conscience. I think you and others answered that question quite convincingly by saying that I would not need to have a bad conscience as long as she was not ready and as long as my actions were covered by the original agreement. If she thinks I wasn't doing anything, her fault, but I can't tell her because it would mean breaking the agreement. I agree with you that it's a really weird situation I'm in. Glad you find it interest. :-D

To OhDearMuriel:
Thanks for the reassurance. That's most likely what I'll do. I know it's gonna fuck with my head. But you are right, it's the best I can do, and I won't question my determination afterwards if it's still unsuccessful.

To MistressDeeCee and RidingWindhorses:
I'll think about this being a moot point again. I think it's still worth trying to go forward, and keeping the FWB up and running is the only way I could do that, at least for a while. Sounds weird but it's my way to keep my self-worth and have some distraction while waiting for the final outcome of this and working on things for a bit. It's already quite a mindfuck, but I think I'm doing relatively well for what it's worth. But I'll keep your advice in mind. You may turn out the be right after all, but I think OhDearMuriel's advice to do this at my own pace is really good.

So thanks everybody for providing all this advice. It has been really, really helpful. I think I am now in a good position to know what's right and wrong and what to do. I'll take it from here. I may come back and post here if I need more advice, but for now I'm good. :-D

OP posts:
RidingWindhorses · 30/07/2017 18:32

Be honest OP, the only way this is going to work is if you give up the FB. Otherwise your attention will be divided, and if your wife gets wind that you're essentially dating her and fucking someone else, she'll call a halt to it anyway. You really can't rekindle a relationship with one person while you're having sex with another.

The fact that you're unwilling to give up a liaison that's basically only sex indicates that a) you're not into your wife as much as you tell yourself and b) you think it unlikely to work out with her.

Having to fuck someone for self-worth is really odd and suggests you might need therapy.

MadMax79 · 30/07/2017 18:33

Thanks, I'll think about that.

OP posts:
SleightOfHand · 30/07/2017 18:45

That's not a big issue. I take regular tests and I am cautious as to who I sleep with. How do you know for sure who they've slept with, you can't know for sure can you.

NotAnotherNoughtiesTune · 30/07/2017 20:08

I agree you shouldn't say unless she asks. If she directly asks, I think she's breaking the agreement.

I'm not going to lie it's a tricky one and as PP said life isn't all black and white and all in or all out.

I think all you can do is carry on but I'd say not to give it too long. Maybe another 6 months and she hasn't decided then call it a day as you can't wait indefinitely. At least then you can move on and also say you gave her time (9 months?) to have a good idea what she wants.

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