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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Friend has really upset me- Would you leave activity?

49 replies

SirVixofVixHall · 20/07/2017 20:29

The detail is slightly complicated and very boring so bear with me!
Background- Friend and I are in a choir together. I've not known her long, just under a year, but I really like her. Choir employs a conductor. He can be horribly shouty and rude. Trying to broach this with him has never gone down well. (understatement) .He is a very volatile character.
Friend is getting involved in a romance of sorts with him.
At our last performance I made a mistake and came in early on a song. About ten other members (around a third to half the group) also came in at the same time- I thought the conductor had cued us in. I do find his conducting hard to follow at times and others have mentioned this as an issue, including some comments this time from the (professional) soloists.

Problem- I'm on the choir committee, and my friend has just become the new Chair. I brought up the conductor, asking if there was a way we could talk to him (without him getting v annoyed) about giving simpler signals . I mentioned the issue with the song. Friend then snappily said "they should have bothered to learn their music and then there wouldn't have been a problem" I was a bit shocked at both the comment and the tone of voice, and as I was obviously included in the "they" I replied that I had learnt the song . She then said, even more loudly and sarcastically "well obviously not, or you wouldn't have come in at the wrong time".
This was in front of the committee.
Everyone made some mistakes here and there in the concert, including friend. I don't have any problem at all saying "oh bloody hell i messed up those three bars" or whatever, we are not a professional choir. I am only learning to read music, and I still learn by ear, so I work really hard at home on my part. This time, unusually, we sang without sheet-music and I think I made less mistakes than the average member because I am used to not relying on the sheet.
I am really upset and offended. She basically accused me of not bothering to learn my piece, and then blaming the mistake on the conductor. And she said this to the whole committee.

She sent an email the next morning asking if she'd upset me. I replied "yes" and why. She then denied saying it at all. Hmm. I replied with what she'd said and explained why it had offended me, and that I was particularly upset that she would speak to me in this humiliating way. She has responded with an "I'm only human and that wasn't what I meant at all" sort of message. So how to proceed? I'm even wondering if I really want to stay in the choir, as with the shouty conductor and now this issue, it is turning into loads of stress rather than fun. I don't understand why she was so rude to me. We are all polite to each other on the committee, even when we disagree. We do have some members who make a lot of mistakes, or don't learn their parts properly, but I am not in that group- I do more homework than most. I had also done a huge amount of extra work organising this concert. I feel really hurt. WWYD?

OP posts:
Joysmum · 21/07/2017 08:00

You are telling a conductor how to conduct?

Of course. Conducting is about communication. If so many people are having trouble it's up to him to change how he communicates just like it's up to a school teacher to teach in a way that the whole class can learn. That's what makes the difference.

Gemini69 · 21/07/2017 10:08

newjobsoon you sound like a raving maniac ... how very dare anyone challenge the Conductor.... you need to calm down ... it's a fun hobby for these people... it's not the King College Choir ?!

KermitsLoveChild · 21/07/2017 11:41

OP I left a choir last year for very similar reasons.

Our conductor was a tyrant, at the start she's all sweetness but as we'd get closer to performances she'd lose her temper in dramatic style. She stormed out of rehearsals a lot! After the last storming out I decided that after the performance (which was only a week away) I'd be leaving. It had stopped being fun and instead become a chore. The conductor wasn't very good at conducting either, had her own style and didn't use the signals I am used to.

We got through the performance and afterwards we were called into a meeting where the conductor quit in dramatic style then she emailed the chosen few and has since set up another choir with the members she liked. I was invited but chose to leave choral singing.

A challenging conductor is no fun to work with and your friend has to learn to separate her relationship from her duties as Chair or else's step down if she can't be impartial.

AlternativeTentacle · 21/07/2017 11:55

I'd have already gone after that meeting.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 21/07/2017 12:57

I belong to a small chamber choir - like the OP's choir, we do some pretty challenging works - and we all make mistakes whilst we are rehearsing - that is a normal part of rehearsals - and it is how we find out which bits we are struggling with, and where there are issues that need to be addressed - and if the conductor's gestures are not clear at a particular point, then that is an issue that needs to be addressed, in a polite and professional fashion.

The relationship between a conductor and a choir/orchestra should be mutually respectful, whether they are professional or amateurs. It should be possible for choir members or the committee to raise matters that are concerning them with the conductor. I belong to a choir, and I think we have a good relationship with our conductor - we respect his skills and talent but we can still talk to him if we think there's a problem.

In my opinion, you get a better performance when the musicians and the conductor are working together towards the same goal, and I think that happens best when there is an atmosphere of mutual respect and honesty. How is the conductor supposed to know that you need a clearer signal at a particular entry, if you don't TELL them?

"You are telling a conductor how to conduct?"

@newjobsoon - I have never worked with a conductor who had this kind of arrogance towards the people they were working with. We are an amateur chamber choir, and our conductors are professionals, but they value us and respect us for the effort we put in, and we respect them for their knowledge and talent - and part of that is acknowledging that none of us are perfect, we all make mistakes, and we can all learn from them.

@SirVix - I agree with previous posters who have said that your friend needs to be able to remain impartial, if she is to carry on chairing the choir committee whilst having a relationship with the conductor. That said, as a member of our choir's committee, I know how hard it is to get anyone to be on the committee, let alone chair it.

timeisnotaline · 21/07/2017 13:04

I wouldn't leave the choir, but I'd be very tempted to leave the committee. I'd definitely dump the friend after that email exchange (after responding 'well done humans have been known to apologisevafter making their only human mistakes. Why did you bother asking if you'd offended me? You did. Don't speak to me that way again.)

SirVixofVixHall · 21/07/2017 13:19

Kermits- yes, that is just what he is like. Last year a soloist was really upset by him. We've had people leave because he rants at us so horribly. We've had rehearsals where the whole choir cowers while he shouts. This was tackled by the committee with some difficulty, and he has improved but is still very unpredictable, and he now hates our outgoing chair, hence the new chair.
Newsjobsoon- i am learning to read music, so not clueless. I can follow a score reasonably well , and my music reading has really improved, but I am not totally fluent yet. I have sung in many acapella choirs where we didn't sing from the score, in this choir we sing opera choruses etc, so I have worked hard to improve my skills. This is true of others in the choir too. This (opera) concert was all sung from memory anyway.
And yes, about 10 of us came in at just the same point, so not an accident or lack of learning. Other friend who has sung with many opera groups and choirs, said "his conducting style is like nothing I've ever experienced", so I think it needs at least mentioning, as we have talked in the past as a committee about the problems with him, and whether we need someone else.
I think I will resign from the committee. I do feel she should have owned up to a conflict of interest , and stepped down. Their romance is in its early stages , and I had assumed it wouldn't go anywhere due to a big difference in age and temperment , and so was happy when she put herself up for chair. I have sent her a response to her email, saying that I liked her very much, and had enjoyed getting to know her, but that I would like her to explain why she spoke to me so rudely. I suppose I'll weigh up how forgiving I feel based on her answer..
Oh and I'm grateful for the posts, it is helping me clarify what I want from choir and whether I want to go on. So far the gorgeous music we sing and the friends I have, have made it worthwhile. Now I am less sure that the balance is tipped in the right direction!

OP posts:
SirVixofVixHall · 21/07/2017 13:29

SGT, I posted before reading your message. The soloists (professionals) said much the same thing as you. One said that she felt his stressy shoutyness was never going to get the best out of us, as it just makes us all over anxious and panicky. They all commented on his confusing conducting.
I want us all to give the best performance we can, I'm sure the conductor does too, but I get really confused by his gestures as they vary so much. How the committee talks to him about this I don't know, his moods change from one second to the other.

OP posts:
SirVixofVixHall · 21/07/2017 13:29

timeisnotaline. Yes, I think that is pretty much what I will do.

OP posts:
RogueBiscuit · 21/07/2017 13:45

I just don't get it. What entitles this horrible man to verbally abuse you?

Brontosaurusinspace · 21/07/2017 14:24

"Last year a soloist was really upset by him. We've had people leave because he rants at us so horribly. We've had rehearsals where the whole choir cowers while he shouts."

Crikey. I'm chair of a choral society, and if our musical director treated us like that, we'd ask him to leave. Being a bit short tempered in rehearsal is one thing, that is quite another.

SirVixofVixHall · 21/07/2017 14:48

Asking him to leave has been suggested. However a lot of the choir seem to adore him. There are many older women who mother and fuss over him and mention his "artistic temperment" even though he isn't all that much younger than them. Apparently the one before him was far nastier so perhaps in comparison he seems fine? Most of the time I would say "short tempered in rehearsals" does cover it, and he has seemed to make an effort this year to shout less, but there are always moments when he snaps, and you can never predict when that might be. We are in a remote rural area where alternatives are fairly thin on the ground. Musically he is gifted, he is a brilliant pianist. He's very volatile though, and alarmingly unpredictable. I like the interesting choices of music ( I've learned a lot in this choir). I like the social side of it. I hate the stress in the run up to performances and the wild changes in mood . That and the fact I find him so hard to follow!

OP posts:
TatterdemalionAspie · 21/07/2017 15:29

As you can't even read music I don't really feel you should be so critical of someone who clearly does. You are telling a conductor how to conduct? Really? Because you are too slow perhaps? Because you are on a committee? Christ. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Does your username indicate that you'll be resigning as chair of OP's choir due to your thinking with your pussy conflict of interest, newjobsoon? Wink

KermitsLoveChild · 21/07/2017 15:45

SirVix we're rural/remote too. Maybe these conductors think they can get away with it because they know there's little other option?

When I left I spoke to my conductor and she told me she'd seen I wasn't my usual self during rehearsals...really wanted to tell her that was because I didn't appreciate being yelled at like a naughty child, even if the yelling wasn't directed at me.

I miss the music now but I don't miss her. She's also repeating past mistakes so I'm glad I left when I did.

onalongsabbatical · 21/07/2017 15:52

Counterpane brilliant!

Cuckingfunt1981 · 21/07/2017 15:56

I agree with anyfucker. Chicks over dicks

chocatoo · 21/07/2017 16:00

Is it really worth losing a friendship over? Move on.

SirVixofVixHall · 21/07/2017 16:01

Tatter- Grin

OP posts:
2ndSopranos · 21/07/2017 17:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

magoria · 21/07/2017 22:28

Hobbies are meant to be enjoyable.

If you have stopped having fun with this choir perhaps it is time to find another?

Daisy17 · 21/07/2017 22:33

Newjobsoon obviously hasn't had much experience of conductors......!

christmaswreaths · 21/07/2017 22:46

I would have had to say something to the conductor at the time, eg "excuse me, why are you shouting - there is no need for this behaviour"..

In your shoes I would confront the individual directly

SirVixofVixHall · 22/07/2017 11:47

yes, that has been suggested and I personally agree that confronting him directly at the time is the best thing to do. If we kept doing that I do think things might improve. I think he has no idea how he comes across for a start, and also if he is annoyed he just gets extremely irritable.
Oh and yes we do have an AGM. In a few months time.

OP posts:
flumpybear · 22/07/2017 12:47

Your friend shouldn't be chairmof a
Committee if she's in a relationship with the conductor - put in a request to change her so that
Impartial chairing is retained. Also if you can't discuss things as she'll just say I i up for him then it makes a
Mockery of the board!

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