Difficult relationship with my father

[TheRat]

I have NC for this as it is very outing, if any of my family is on MN it would be obvious. This might be a bit long as I don't want to drip feed.

Our family dynamics are a bit bizarre. I have a sister and a brother, I have 1 DS and my sister has 2 DC. My brother is still living at home. The relationship between my mum and dad is pretty much non-existent and they really don't like each other, however they still live in the same house and sleep in different rooms. They both seem too stubborn or afraid of change to just get divorced and go their separate ways.

I am very close to my mum. She is extremely nurturing and loves all her grandkids to death. She bends over backwards to help with them whenever she can, despite having significant health problems herself. All 3 of us have many wonderful memories of her bringing us up and we have a fantastic relationship.

My dad, on the other hand, has never been the nurturing sort. I don't really have any pleasant memories of him spending time with us in our childhood. He was (and still is) very short tempered, and regularly physically disciplined us when we were little. The main emotion I remember feeling for him as a child is fear. He was an alcoholic, possibly still is - he still goes to the pub several times a week but now I don't live there any more I don't know how much he drinks. My DS is 1 year old and he has still never even held him, despite being offered more than once.

Here are a few examples of his behaviour:

My brother used to suffer from night terrors when he was younger. My mum used to deal with these every time. There was one night -
my brother will have been about 10- when my dad woke up before my mum when he was having one of these night terrors. He got up, grabbed my brother, put him in the shower under cold water and barricaded them both in the bathroom. My brother was screaming and my mum was bashing on the door trying to get in. She managed to get in eventually and he pinned her up against the wall hard enough to give her bruises and almost hit her. He was apologetic after this and said he wouldn't drink again. I'm not sure how long that lasted.

When we irritated him he would kick us with his steel-toed work boots as we tried to run away.

If we were sat on the floor in front of the telly he would intentionally stand on our fingers. When we recoiled and said ouch he would look at us, smile, and say "oops".

Whenever we said "I love you" his reply was always "I love me too".

He was quite good at drawing and sometimes drew things for us. I asked him to draw a picture of me, I'll have been about 8 at this time. He got a pencil and paper, started drawing, then handed me an unpleasantly detailed picture of a warty hairy rat-human creature with my name written underneath it. I was so upset I went crying to my mum (who spent ages agonising over drawing a nice picture of me, which I still have now).

Would slap us in front of our school friends. This resulted in one of my sisters school friends being banned from playing with her because the friend had told her parents what she saw.

Told my brother he was an accident and wasn't wanted during an argument.

There's a lot more but you get the general idea.

He is not all bad - he never let us go without financially and kept a roof over our head. When we have been in trouble as adults he has offered help. I'm sure if we ever really needed him he would be there.

My sister has already gone NC with him as she simply can't be arsed with all the mind games any more. I would still like a relationship with him because he is my dad. My only dad. He won't be around forever and I don't want to regret not trying to make it work when it is too late.

I attempted to gently open discussion about this a few days ago after my DS's 1st Birthday, and it really did not go down well. He just went into a fit of self pity, how everyone would be better off without him, everybody only wants his money etc etc. This kind of shut down the conversation because then it ended up me reassuring him that isn't true, then him leaving upset.

Does anybody else have family dynamics like this? Any advice? Do you think it's even worth trying to build bridges or just leave it? Sorry for such a long post.

What do you picture a working relationship being like with your dad?

I suppose him opening up, really. Showing some interest in his grandchildren. Making an effort to see us every now and again. When we do talk it always feels a bit strained, and I put that down to the fact he doesn't know us as adults too well. He has always been emotionally distant.

Try reading about Toxic parents. I don't think your dad will change and I would be very careful of what he says and how he behaves around DS. If you want to keep visiting him do but don't expect him to ask for forgiveness for his past cruelties or suddenly become the father you always wanted him to be. He can only think about how things impact on him - hence the self pity. He needs to want to work towards self awareness - only he can change how he behaves.

The Stately Homes thread in Relationships is a good place to discuss this issue.

Not exactly the same, but I had an abusive sibling who denies and minimises his abuse of me (which went on for years and years).

He tells me it's all in my head, that I'm being selfish, making a fuss etc.

If he won't own the past he's dead to me.

My parents defend him/make excuses/live in the land of it never happened. My relationship with them is practically non existent.

It's hard, but I'd rather live an honest life than a life where I have to 'pretend' that my upbringing was ok.

If your Dad won't meet you halfway and discuss things I think you only have two choices. Pretend that you are ok with his abuse and carry on the charade for your own children to witness while you grow up.

Or walk away.

Yes, you only have one Dad. But sorry, he was an abusive prick. The story about the picture of you really upset me. And I say that as someone who experienced sadistic sexual abuse in childhood.

At some point it is ok to stand up and say that you are not ok with that behaviour.

"he never let us go without financially and kept a roof over our head"

That is bare minimum parenting. It doesn't make him a decent father.

Him not being around forever is the most positive thing I can see.

No way would I want my dc around him. .
Your dm sounds fab. .
Plenty enough for you. .
And for your dc.

Why the hell would you want your children within 6 feet Of an abusive alcoholic?
" he's my Dad"!! So what? You didn't choose him but you can choose to keep away from him
Be glad you gave 1 great parent and your children have ( at least ) one great grandparent
He sounds like an awful man, and giving you a roof over your head is just a very basic part of being a parent

I'm very sorry to read this OP. Thank god for your lovely mother. I couldn't personally have a relationship with him and I would certainly keep some distance between him and the grandchildren. Just keep to basic pleasantries, and keep yourself emotionally safe.

I discussed this with my own DF and FIL separately recently and both said that their father's didn't know how to be the father's of today and that they were the bread winners, very strong "disciplinarians" and rather absent other than that. My own DF's father was an alcoholic and guess what? My DF went through that too. My DH often says he doesn't remember much about his DF growing up, that he hardly spent time with him and DH had a similar experience to the night terrors with his DF. My FIL actually told me he had remembered it and saw it as more light hearted when he shook DH and poured water over him (he didn't assault MIL in the process) but I was horrified and DH saw it differently to FIL. Both my DF and FIL have changed as they've grown older, I think some of that is regret, shame and knowing if they had children now, they'd do it differently as they see other great fathers around. In fact, I have a much younger sibling and my DF is different with them.

It's no excuse but sometimes people don't have a good working role model for who and how they should be for their children. It can usually go one of two ways: they can follow in their footsteps or strive for better and be better.

However, whatever the reason for him being an incredibly shitty father, you don't have to forgive that at all. If he can't see the error of his ways and he is still that man, I'd NC all the way. You can meet your DM for lunch or continue seeing her at your own home. Your DC don't need a man like that in their life, it doesn't sound like it will be a huge shame although you will always feel it is because you want you DF to be a better man.

To be blunt, I really don't know why you want to try and forge a 'relationship' with him. He sounds very damaged, a terrible father and certainly not someone you want or need around your child.

Your sister has the right idea going NC - I suggest you follow her lead.

What you experienced growing up was very abnormal and toxic behaviour, I think you already know this.

He is not capable of the kind of relationship you would like, he doesn't have it in him.

If he is causing you heartache still, now that you are an adult (if there are arguments, he loses his temper etc. With you still) then you should probably go NC.

If your adult relationship is pretty non-existent but you can continue on in this manner unscathed (because he is living with your DM still after all) then perhaps that is the best option.

wormulonian very wise words, I think you have hit the nail on the head in that he can only see how things affect him. A recent perfect example of this was my sisters washing machine breaking. She has 2 young DC 1 and 5yo, and she needed washing doing including 5yo's school uniform. My mum took hole the bag of washing home and as she was loading the machine my dad asked what she was doing. She told him, and he went off on one about how he wanted to go out tonight and wanted a shirt washing..

sewingmachine I'm sorry to hear about your situation. My family do not turn a blind eye, my mum hates him and doesn't hide anything. My sister openly dislikes him and is NC. My brother is more similar to me in the way that he still wants a relationship but he does excuse a lot of his behaviour with "that's just how he is" and "that's how he was brought up, he doesn't know any better".

To those who me toned about having him around my son, tbh it hasn't been something I've had to think about because he has zero interest. Thinking about it, if he did show more interest like I said I'd like him to, I'd ironically probaby get a bit concerned about his influence. Food for thought. I think because I know it's so so unlikely ever to happen I never thought it through completely. I know for a fact I would not want them alone together. I think what I yearn for him is basically for him to be a different person... which is an unattainable fantasy.

meowstro thanks for sharing your story, there are some big similarities there. Funny you should say about "not knowing any different" as he mentioned that when I spoke to him recently. His mother was a very strict disciplinarian and absolutely no-nonsense. Very heavy handed. But his dad - my grandad- was lovely. The most patient man I've ever known. So kind and loving and I only ever remember smiles and hugs from him. Its strange. We have theorised that maybe dad turned out this way because of his mum being so domineering and him never wanting to end up as "under the thumb" as his dad was. He wanted to be sure he wore the trousers, so to speak.

Gosh, he reminds me of my dad and my brother. My dad is the adult child of a brutal alcoholic, my brother is a verbally vicious alcoholic. Both of them are very weak and damaged men (my brother damaged by my dad, no doubt ; my dad damaged by his dad). They both have a smart Alec side to them, deeply Ignorant/cruel 'humour'. So sad and awful.

Anyway, I've just come from an ACA meeting - Adult Children Of Alcoholics (and Dysfunctional Families). I suggest you have a look at that, you'll hear a lot of stories you recognise there. There's also Al Anon which, again, I highly recommend. Do have a look.

Bcs having a parent like this is so damaging on almost a cellular level. You can't escape it, even if you adopt a kind of resigned and weary acceptance. Imo there's work to do to gain some healing from their awful legacy.

I feel for you. It's so awful having a parent like this, they are like dementors, sucking the life out of everything. Classic alcoholic, all the symptoms . Alcoholism isn't just about the drinking, it's the behaviour, the smashed intimacy, the dead space where a relationship should be. He /the booze is his first love, everything else comes a very poor 100th. They really are the most pitiful people.

Springy. Your words struck such a nerve with me.

My Dad also has alcohol issues (my mother is just a straight narcissist) and I wrote something in therapy about how whenever anything difficult happened to me my parents left an absence "in the space where some parenting should be".

So similar to how you've phrased it. Yes. The dead space where a relationship should be.

OP, he won't change. He's had his chance to be a father to you and he CHOSE to treat you like shit.

Maybe for once take his advice - he is actually right that you and your family are better off without him. You do not owe him anything - you didn't ask for him to be your father but he never did and never will adult up to it.
Your family are the people who love and care for you - you need to love and care for yourself too. And true family is family irrespective of genetics.

We can't choose our parents and sadly, many of us have to endure poor, abusive or toxic behaviour from them.
I know so many people who grew up with one or both extremely toxic parents who were heavy handed and very destructive. However, they have been determined to be the exact opposite of their own parents. It seems that he didn't have the best of upbringing himself or perhaps genetically he hasn't inherited the most pleasant of genes. He is who he is and quite obviously reverts to self pity at the drop of a hat. I think it's highly likely that a ) he will never acknowledge his wrong doings of the past and b) he won't ever change.
You desperately long for him to be the father of your dreams but he can never fulfill that role. By all means continue a relationship with him if you so desire it but have no expectations and build up a defensive wall around yourself emotionally otherwise this will continue to be a very painful, negative life journey.