Naked 'Green light' issue

[restlessat50]

I have been here before a few times to find advise about my OH behaviour towards me particularly in the bedroom department which has lead me to decide to end my marriage of 25 years. My OH blames me largely for not trying to 'mend the fences' but I just couldn't move forward following a series of incidents where he 'crossed a line' with me. by forcing himself on me when I had clearly said no to sex.

One occasion he just got on top of me and had sex when I had got into bed naked (on holiday) on bringing this up recently he said he thought I had given him the 'green light' because I rarely got into bed without night clothes (because if i did it always jndiicated sex was on the menu). That night. I cried myself to sleep.
I brought this up with my therapist and she confirmed that what he had done was rape me he has never accepted this.

I just want to know what others think. Several friends have said his behaviour was without doubt appalling and v disrespectful I agree with them but I can't quite accept he raped me somehow but according to my therapist that is what it was. I was v shaken up at the time cried myself to sleep and then didn't bring it up until after another incident where he forced himself on me (which again he denies) which is what lead us down the road we are on now towards divorce. There has been a pattern of this throughout our marriage but because we were married I think I always thought it was just part of the package and mostly our relationship (and even sex life) was ok but this behaviour would rear its head every now and again.

His excuse for his behaviour was always because I wasn't wearing any PJ's it was the 'green light' for him to have sex. Poor excuse I think
Any comments welcome

You said no, you didn't consent, he had sex with you anyway. I'm really sorry, he raped you.

Being naked isn't a green light for sex

He did not have the right to assume consent, not that I think that's what he was doing.
He wanted sex and was going to get it from you regardless of your feelings on the matter, the excuses are just gaslighting bull shit to confuse you and absolve him of responsibility.
I hope you're ok, do you think you might want to report him to the police? Rape within marriage is still rape and illegal.

I am so sorry, but what he has done to you is rape.

Have you decided now to leave the marriage?

Awful to read. I'm so sorry he did that to you. You must have been devastated and disgusted. You poor thing.

I'm afraid it's not something that can be explained away - he raped you.

To answer your question you just need to ask yourself whether any man walking past any naked woman, is given the green light to have sex with that woman.

It is understandable that you don't want to use the word rape, I don't like using it myself for my past situations because it just doesn't feel "severe" enough in my head, and that's okay. It's your own personal thing.

You have at least admitted that he had sex with you when you clearly didn't want to. Maybe you just let it happen, doesn't mean you wanted it. Maybe you didn't say no, doesn't mean you said yes.

He can use whatever excuse he wants to, to explain away HIS behaviour, you can't make him see what he did was wrong. You need to come to terms with it yourself though. My ex will never acknowledge that he assaulted me and emotionally abused me, but I don't need that from him, I need NOTHING from him.

Yes he raped you
It doesn't matter what you're wearing if you don't consent then it's rape

You're using the words 'forced himself on you', those are words that mean rape. Yes he raped you. The green light for sex is consent.

Normal couples can be naked safely with each other without it meaning sex.

Thanks for the validation sometimes you can think you are going mad with things. We had couple counselling for a year and he insisted in 4 separate sessions I go over the details of how in my words 'he forced himself on me' and each time defended his actions with 'reasoned agreement' & suggested I fabricated things. He is v angry that in his words 'I haven't tried to mend fences' & he is now playing victim role so implying to people including our DDs that the reason the marriage has ended is driven by me. I feel he has really messed with my head and is controlling. I have worked hard at trying to keep things pleasant for the harmony of the family home we are still in as he refused to move out & at the time didn't feel I should (now I wish I had) He doesn't see any of his actions as unacceptable just thinks he is the one badly treated by me. Even said the other night he was 'the victim in all of this' just so arrogant
I did talk to a Women's Refuge who advised his behaviour was abusive. She advised me to call the police if he misbehaved again which he hasn't done.
I could contact the police but I don't know what I would achieve apart from a load more misery and the allegations could never to properly proved.

However having confirmation that what he did was abusive and 'rape' from yourselves & others is a huge help in helping me feel believed in this tragic story,
I am feeling vulnerable & low in confidence right now but I know I am doing the right thing getting out of this toxic marriage both for me and my daughters who incidentally are both close to their Dad but they don't know the full facts and hopefully never will.
Although one friend said I should tell them I fear it would be v damaging & I know my husband would just deny it all he is v articulate and would I am sure convince them it's 'all in Mum's head'.
It's nice to be believed though so thanks to you all for that

If you said No (if you dont have a safe word set up) it means you did not give him consent to have sex.

My i ask how many times did you say No? not trying to defend him in anyway as no mean no.

My rule is when i hear no i stop and ask. has a girl. One girl that would mutter under her breath no when she was at the peak and i always stopped for her to say "why did you stop". took her ages to figure out why i would stop all the time. we ended up making a safe word.

The fact he sees you being naked as a sign he can have sex with you is all shades wrong and worrying tbh.

He raped you OP, you said no, he carried on.

I hope you get out soon, I'd not feel safe around someone with this mentality.

So it is his assumption that because you were naked you wanted sex. Did he ask, talk to you or find out if that was why you got into bed naked? Did you cuddle up to him and initiate sex? Why does he think that you lack of clothes assumes sex?
What if you DID want sex, but then changed your mind? Did you ask/find out/talk to you? Would he have continued if you changed your mind?
This is just an extension of 'the girl was wearing a short skirt so she deserved it'

I cannot imagine my dh ever continuing unless it was clear i was enjoying and participating in sex. If you were in any way showing by body language etc that you weren't happy, why wouldn't he have stopped, asked if you were OK, tried to find out what the problem was?

Normal people don't just plough on regardless.

I am so sorry, he has raped, you, more than once, and his behaviour towards you in this is totally not normal. Of course he doesn't want to admitt it, who wants to admitt they are a rapist? But a man who doesn't see a problem with forcing themselves on you isn't going to admit and apologise are they?

You're absolutely right doesn't matter which way I turn it round it was rape. TBH I didn't actually realise what was going on until afterwards we had both had abit to drink and he was on top of me and done before I realised what had happened. It has taken several years and much discussion w marital counsellor & a couple of friends to unpick things and realise his behaviour is not normal. He always refers to such things as the royal 'we' suggesting I was much apart if it as he was (he's v good at manipulating situations to his advantage)
On the 2nd occasion which blew us out of the marriage stable he pleaded to have sex and I reluctantly agreed to avoid a row. He then proceeded to sit on my chest and force me into giving him a 'hand job'. I had no where to go. That situation is what pushed me over the edge into marital descent. He has always denied either situ saying I didn't say no and so assumed it was ok to continue. He has also prejudged how I felt and suggested that I fabricated a lot of what happened in front of the counsellors we saw. They tbh looked abit shocked but were pretty useless in dealing with situ (least my marital therapist said she would get advise these 2 didn't say anything supportive )
The whole thing has been crap but I am lucky to have a supportive family and friends.

We r both in the marital home still in separate bedrooms now trying to organise house sale etc. He stalls at every opportunity and now is just cold and distant but I can see in his face he thinks he is the victim in all of this. How can someone manage to be so manipulative! We have to somehow get thru our 25th wedding anniversary without me stabbing him!

He will never admit to doing anything wrong OP, he won't admit he is a rapist and a sexual predator because if he did then he'd have to face the truth, it's far easier blaming you also or presenting it all as a thing you both did.

You will never get him to apologise or admit to any of it, men like him never do, it's always someone else's fault, I'd not waste another moment trying to work out his sick head.

I'd also try staying with a relative or friend until the house is sold.

You didn't consent, it was rape. What a horrible man, I'm sorry that happened to you

Thanks for support I realise now I have just been far to 'nice' always bending to his whims & demands but I realise it for what it is now. After the 2nd incident I couldn't have him anywhere near me for months (I just lost my Mum too) I hated the sight of him. That has been replaced w a weariness now but I just find him so controlling
I think u are right Adora he hates admitting when he is in the wrong & prefers to always suggest that our marriage difficulties are down to both of us.

I just want out now but we run a business together which I have largely stepped away from but I have to maintain goodwill between us for the sake of the business and ensure I get paid going forward. It's a tricky situation tbh and v stressful at times but I just keep focusing on the open door and freedom which I will have v soon now

It's weird isn't it that we can get ourselves into some right unsavoury situations; as women we also excuse a lot which I hate as men don't!

Good luck to you OP, I wish you every happiness when you finally get away from this horrible specimen; happy times ahead me thinks.

i could walk down the street nude and it wouldnt be okay to assume i wanted sex. Saying no and carrying on is rape. Im sorry you are in this situation but hope you can find some comfort and order sorting out what happens next!

His reasoning is utter bullshit.
Even assuming that your normal sex life was with you lying there, staring at the ceiling and thinking of England, it is not really plausible that he didn't notice any difference to the times you wanted to have sex.

He's obviously not unable to read body language in other contexts; people who are very inept at it usually don't have any success in life unless they're geniuses who are forgiven for everything.

On telling your children ... how old are they?

It is a horrible thing to know about, but they have a right to know if they are old enough to refuse to see him after the divorce.

I would find it very hard to do that to them they are 21 & 15 both are iclose to him but particularly the younger one. They have a good rapport and both like sport etc. My older daughter asked me right at the beginning of when things kicked off the reason for us falling out was it an affair or abuse. I thought that was a strange thing to ask at the time but she is v astrute. I obviously denied it but something tells me she has more of an idea than she lets on.
He has been quite manipulative w DDs I have had friends say they have witnessed him undermining me and I often felt marginalised particularly when my older daughter was younger she was v good at splitting us and he often sided with her against me. My opinions didn't seem to count for much although w our younger daughter he has stepped up but only because he has had to. He is a weak, controlling creep sad but true

I think if the boot was on the other foot and say I had had an affair he would stroop
about sulking and feeling victimised forever & a day. This situation is far worse because it is so hard to explain to people. "Btw I am splitting from my OH because he taped me" might make me look abit nutty. Not exactly the sort of thing you can tell someone you bump into on a casual basis is it! unless you feel very vindicated. Just not in my nature I am probably 'too nice'

I have at times felt compelled to tell his sister but I think he would just deny it & we weren't exactly best of pals but it might sow a seed of doubt which might just hang in the air. I have told my eldest sister who although horrid has been supportive & came with me to the solicitors last week. The solicitor advised me to file for divorce on grounds of bad behaviour siting sexual
abuse. She thinks waiting another 2 years to divorce amicably will be v deterianental for me and he could also turn things round considerably to make me look like I am in the wrong.

What a massive mess not what expect at 50 but others have a lot worse to deal with
My main concern is can I hang on and stay sane for another possibly 4-5 months whilst selling our house & looking for new places or should I just leave & rent to save my sanity but not necessarily my purse strings
Where I live is expensive & I need to stay in the area for my DD who is still at school in the locality. She is in year 11 from sept so an important year for her so the less disruption the better but msybe tdking a rental place over summer would make it a smoother ride for her and get her used to a change of routine

I'm so sorry OP that you're going through this. To me the moment his reaction to the first incident wasn't "I'm so sorry, I didn't realise, it will never happen again" then he is in the wrong. Rape or otherwise, if after that first incident he didn't realise that his behaviour needed to change, then it never will.

You are doing the right thing leaving. Regardless of his attitude to the whole thing, you're clearly very unhappy and he's unwilling to work to change that. Do you feel safe staying where you are with him in the house? If not you need to leave, unfortunately regardless of the impact on your daughters.

If you feel safe, then you need to balance a few months of misery against the impact of leaving now: and that doesn't necessarily mean it's right to stay put. Your dd in yr11 will either have to cope with an unhappy home, or the impact of your moving. Moving might actually provide a healthier environment for her.

I'm so sorry OP that you're going through this. To me the moment his reaction to the first incident wasn't "I'm so sorry, I didn't realise, it will never happen again" then he is in the wrong. Rape or otherwise, if after that first incident he didn't realise that his behaviour needed to change, then it never will.

You are doing the right thing leaving. Regardless of his attitude to the whole thing, you're clearly very unhappy and he's unwilling to work to change that. Do you feel safe staying where you are with him in the house? If not you need to leave, unfortunately regardless of the impact on your daughters.

If you feel safe, then you need to balance a few months of misery against the impact of leaving now: and that doesn't necessarily mean it's right to stay put. Your dd in yr11 will either have to cope with an unhappy home, or the impact of your moving. Moving might actually provide a healthier environment for her.

thanks buffy he has always rebuffed my claims suggesting it was ridiculous and why didn't I mention it at the time. It wasn't until I had marital counselling (on my own) that it was properly acknowledged and that was a year after that particular incident. But there were other things pulling down my PJ;s (he referred to it as abit of fun - I was left feeling quite shaken up), lots of grooping both in the office and home. Leery and suggestive comments left me feeling on edge particularly if we were home alone I wojld make any excuse to go out if DDs were not around.
Sad because there was a time when I would say we were close but this type of behaviour has always been there right from when we first met really but I didn't acknowledge it until recently as on other levels we got on well. He's always been abit pushy and quite demanding in the 'bedroom' department . He wasn't v. successful with girls when he was young which resulted in feelings of inadequacy I think but it's not an excuse for how he has treated me.
I don;t feel unsafe just weary now as this situ has been going on for nearly 2 years. He spent the first year arguing and denying his behaviour and insisted we had CC to 'mend the fences'. I just couldn't move towards him like my feet were 'stuck in concrete'. I thought he was a complete creep at the time. Any love I had just died after that 2nd incident. He has managed to spin it out the therapy for a year and sees himself as the victim and me as a bully quite unbelievably arrogant actually. How can you mend the fence with someone you think of as a complete creep. The difficult thing is I run a business with him so have to maintain some level of professionalism as it is my main source of income right now.
All I can think is in a few months I will be able to shut my own front door and what a relief that will be. I am determined to not to let him or his behavirour break my spirit but it's hard sometimes.