Spousal sexual abuse

[IrritatedUser1960]

Right....I have read an awful lot of posts about men constantly "going on" about not having enough sex, whining, pestering, forcing, nagging, threatening, not so secretive wanking in bed next to you, reminiscing constantly about the early days of your relationship in bed which quite frankly is not sustainable with small children or the menopause or illness.
In my mind this constitutes abuse and is a form of mental rape and should be stamped on. I divorced my husband for this as it was making my life an abject misery and by the end of our long relationship quite frankly I was fucking sick of hearing about sex.
We would have had a great sexual relationship if it wasn't day in and day out pressure and whining about it.
What does everyone else think?

Other than TTC only twice in our 20 year marriage has my DW initiated sex, because that is apparently my job.

At one point she went right off sex, I would try to initiate it and she would reject me. I wouldn't pester I just accepted and asked her again in a few days or a week but after having had sex 5 time in 3 years the continual rejection started to erode my self worth I found I was too fearful of another rejection to continue asking so eventually I said I would leave it to her. That became a 2 year period totally devoid of sex where all intimacy and affection dwindled. I hit rock bottom and had a bit of a breakdown last year, she made a bit of an effort but again all intimacy dwindled away to nothing it was only when I got to the point of talking about leaving that anything has changed.

We not have a relationship that I like to think is in recovery, we have sex a few times a month, we aim to address each other's needs within the relationship both of us have made changes and we are getting along far better than we have in a decade or more.

Sex is part of the package, for me, it isn't the whole thing and certainly the lack of intimacy and a affection I found far harder to cope with.

On this discussion of what is/isn't abuse, I've twice had the experience with the guy I am seeing when I have said I needed to go to bed as I was exhausted and then he'd climb in bed and start having sex with me (me being too exhausted to say go away ).

I am just thinking this is total lack of respect for me... but is it abuse?

Biddylee that's not abuse, it's rape

Constant pestering for sex is a form of abuse. Sometimes, it's abusive because the one doing the pestering doesn't actually want sex at all (so the demands for sex come at a completely impossible time, or are expressed in such a way that they are totally off-putting - often by using words or suggesting specific sex acts that the abuser knows the other partner dislikes) but the motivation is to upset, humiliate or belittle the partner.
Of course, constant witholding sex can be abusive, too. If you refuse every suggestion for sex, sneer at your partner for being disgusting, having no self-control and prohibit masturbation as well, that could be bullying behaviour. If the partner who does want sex to be part of the relationship is kind, reasonable and wants to try to resolve the situation and the partner who is refusing sex refuses to discuss the matter - or promises to 'try harder' but does nothing, then that is unreasonable and unkind as well...

I remember my then-husband whining "But I want it! It helps me to go to sleep!"

Lovely.

Well from what you've said (we would have had a great sex lid if he had stopped pressuring) I am prepared to guess you never told him exactly that. I think it takes two to get to a situation such as you describe. Had you talked openly about him needing to stop pressurising, the need to try making smaller steps to the return of intimacy, spoke honestly about the things that were making you feel unattracted to him, the things that made you feel so stressed, and - importantly- the hope of things changing if you both tried a different approach - then perhaps it would have changed.
If you had said all that and he continued to pester every day then he was batshit crazy and beyond help - but very few men are quite so irredeemable. It shouldn't put you off all of them!

some awful experiences here tho.

A couple can deal with a libido mismatch if they both like, respect and care about each other and keep communicating. Trouble sometimes starts if neither actually talks about what's bothering them and you get into the vicious circle of one constantly asking and the other, feeling pressured and put off, constantly refusing. And then sometimes the one who keeps on saying no says a grudging 'yes' and endures as quick and straightforward a session of sex as possible - which is no fun and makes it even less appealing next time, and things just get worse.
Usually (though, of course, not always) the problems really start when there's a man who does next to nothing in the way of domestic work, yet still asks for sex all the time. It's difficult to feel any desire for someone who is treating you as a servant and sex as another part of your duties. Mothers of babies and small children are quite often too tired to be very interested in sex - but a lot more likely to consider it if the man is seen to be pulling his weight and there's a feeling that both parents are in it together.
It's also likely to be true (though there are exceptions) that a man's response to a reluctant woman is to keep on pestering, to sulk and complain, perhaps bundle her off to the doctor to get 'fixed' - and very rarely change his behaviour, even if she has tried to ask him to do more domestic work/give her a little free time/ask her nicely rather than just shoving his dick at her. A woman whose male partner is sexually reluctant is more likely to blame herself/go on diets/buy new lingerie than nag and belittle him.

Sex in its literal term is not a right I totally agree, but between a husband and wife its about compassion, intimacy, love and that is a right. How on earth do you expect a marriage to survive if you're both too busy with kids, work, household duties and dont make quality time with eachother? Getting a baby sitter isnt that easy, no one else will do the chores, and you cant just get a day off work when you feel like it so maybe the only way for a partner to feel "loved" is through sex because thats the only time you have alone together.

So perhaps the real question is - what does it mean when your DW is no longer interested in having a sexual relationship with her DH?
If he's not pulling his weight, being lazy or any number of other domestic grievances then DW should have the integrity to discuss these. Same for hygiene, respect, or feeling badly treated etc.
Perhaps the issue is that - not least on MN - the answer as to why is that for some reason or other DW is saying - in effect - 'you are not good enough for me to consider continuing an intimate relationship.'
So - if someone says - you're not good enough for me - the relationship is pretty much over.
So the only question left should be whether the feeling that someone isn't good enough mean that they can change things or go on hurting one another.
I would say that if DW was getting the message that she wasn't good enough to be treated with affection, love, intimacy- without any discussion of what is actually wrong - that wouldn't be considered abusive too. And her pathetic attempts to seek reassurance through pestering, sulking, threatening to leave, getting angry, emotional, and basically behaving badly - these would be forgiven. She'd probably be told by at least one MNer she was in an abusive relationship.
My thought for the day!

Well thanks for that Dadaist, really makes me reconsider the coercion and humiliation and rape threats I put up with in my past relationship. Maybe I was the abusive one after all!

Mitten you're being abit pedantic dont you think? Clearly thats not what dadaist is implying.

The thread's titled 'Spousal sexual abuse', EastMidsMum. Maybe not the most appropriate place to spin theories about how actually the spouse doing the coercing and pressuring is the victim after all?

Im not saying anyone conducting any sort of abuse is a victim and I am not justifying the actions of genuine abusers. I am a victim of child sexual abuse myself but alot of women (not all) will automatically put their husband into the catergory of "abuser" if they as much as ask for sex twice in a week! In an otherwise happy marriage I cant understand any real reason other than illness which warrants constant rejection of ones spouse and would not blame said spouse for eventually leaving their partner for doing so. Why is it so "degrading" to be desired by your spouse? Because the same women complaining they are being pestered for sex today will be the ones complaining that their DH is losing interest tomorrow!

There's a massive difference between asking twice a week and pestering and sulking when it doesn't happen.

Yes but what about if thats twice a week EVERY week that the spouse is getting rejected? Thats the point im trying to make, witholding sex from your spouse for no real reason is controlling and abusive too especially if your then going to complain about him masturbating in bed. If you dont want to carry on an intimate relationship with your spouse then do them a favour and leave because chances are they wont leave and will still have glimmer of hope that you will one day actually say yes or even better actually initiate sex! - but I will reiterate that this applies to a healthy marriage, if threats, rape and violence is used then of course disregard what Im saying. Im just distinguishing the difference, as I can imagine alot of women after reading this are going to wrongly accuse their DH of being a "mental rapist"

Sorry should of put /men and /DW as it applies to both parties.

I simply don't agree with your third wave feminist views that "pestering" is a form of sexual abuse and rape.

I'm not even sure what gender has to do with this discussion. Irrespective of m/f, f/m, m/m or f/f the argument is flawed.

Does pestering about getting the lawn cut constitute mental abuse? What about working more hours? Earning more money? Keeping the house tidy? All these forms of "pestering" is now "abuse". Or could it simply be...wait for it....unwanted pestering? No safe spaces needed then!

In terms of mismatched libidos, I'm sure it occurs on both sides of the fence, so to speak. The best way to resolve it is through communication. That doesn't guarantee resolution of course. It may result in disolution of the relationship of course.

Pestering in and of itself is an ineffective communication style.

So trying to get your spouse to pull their weight about the house, is exactly the same as pestering for sex? Sex is now just a household chore? On the list of things for women to provide for their husband? (not sure what you reference to third wave feminism is btw. Women have being arguing for bodily autonomy long before third wave feminism came along).

This is gendered, because men as a class feel more entitled to sexual than women as a class. That's why, for example, rape cases are so difficult to convict, why rape victims are told to watch what they wear, because of the underlying belief men are entitled to have sex. The whole institute of marriage was brought about so men could have access to women's bodies. Seems that view still isn't far from the surface. Sure, some women exhibit similar behaviours doesn't mean that it isn't a gendered issue.

I think in some way or another most relationships are abusive in some way.

Gas lighting, controlling, accusations, cheating, financial control, unwanted touching, making the other feel bad for basic things etc.

The more minor stuff might not be noticeable nor deliberately being done - also not always a constant, but I do think it's all too common

It is such a shame really.

I'm so glad I'm Muslim
It's a simple as you can't refuse to satisfy your spouses sexual needs either way ( for husband and wife ). A woman can request a divorce if her needs are not met and a man can do the same .
But it is also mandatory to be kind and helpful to ones wife and take on every responsibility for raising the kids .
It works .

A relationship is abusive when one partner is determined to get his/her needs met by the other, regardless of how the other partner feels. it doesn't matter if the specific issue is sex, money, having children, where to live, housework or dietary restrictions. if one partner is determined that the other partner will obey and will use any and every method (aggression, sulking, constant demands, picking arguments, belittling, enlisting other friends and family members to put additional pressure on the partner to comply, etc), there is a serious problem.

It's a simple as you can't refuse to satisfy your spouses sexual needs either way ( for husband and wife ). A woman can request a divorce if her needs are not met and a man can do the same .

You absolutely can refuse sex for any reason at all with anyone at all for whatever reason you like. I'd far sooner get divorced than be with someone who didn't understand that.

No need to get triggered scallopsrgreat. It's still not a gender issue. This occurs in the LGBTIQ community too. Gender or sexual persuasion or identity have naught to do with it.

The original proposition was that pestering for sex was the equivalent of rape. I disagree. Vehemently.

next you'll be telling me you believe in the gender pay gap.