DC1 no longer wants contact with father, DC2 sort of does. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place!

[mampam]

It's a long story which I will try and keep brief.
ExH and I split almost 13 years ago. He had an affair and is married to the OW. I myself have been married to my DH for almost 10 years and I have no animosity towards ex over anything to do with the end of our relationship.
The 2 DC we have together are 17 and 14. Ever since we split Ex has treated me with nothing but contempt. He has been nothing but awkward and at times bullying. If he is getting his own way fine but if not he will not take no for an answer, will keep on and on trying to grind me down, will go back on arrangements/agreements and I have found this very draining over the past 13 years. Maintenance or lack of has also been an on off issue.

Almost 6 years ago Ex moved away from living locally to us. Up until then the arrangements for contact were that the Dc would spend every other weekend and one midweek night with him although he would more often than not call off the midweek contact.
When he moved contact reduced to the DC staying with him only a maximum of 3 times per year sometimes less and apart from birthdays he would generally not contact the DC between visits.

For the last 2 years DC 1 (17) hasn't been to stay with him at all. For a number of reasons:

1. She has a part time job and her father only generally tries to arrange visits at the last minute (with the DC as he won't arrange anything through me) and it's always too late to let work down at the last minute.
2. She's always made plans with her friends and feels she'll be missing out if she spends weeks with her father and changing her plans at the last minute.
3. As her father doesn't contact either of them for months at a time and DD has said he's ignored her when she has text him, she feels like she doesn't know him, he doesn't know her and doesn't feel comfortable staying in his house.

As DD has gotten older she has increasingly become angry at her father for the lack of contact and seemingly only popping into their lives when it is convenient to him. He increasing won't take no for an answer when she tells him she doesn't want to stay with him to the point where she gets very stressed out and feels like he is pestering her.
She is also angry at her father for the way he treats DC2 (DS 14).

DS is desperately seeking his fathers approval. For all intents and purposes he feels like DD is favoured over him. The reasons why are that when Ex does make contact it's rarely with him just DD. Ex always makes sure DD's birthday card and/or present arrives in time but never does for DS. One year DS didn't receive anything for his birthday until 6 months later when it was DD's Birthday with no explaination.

DS feels that all of their fathers focus is aimed at DD also.
Poor DS has had a few meltdowns about this issue, the last one being so bad where he was sobbing to me "why doesn't my dad love me?" "Why is he never there for me?" "Why am I the least favourite?", he also said he hated his father but felt guilty for feeling that way and felt like a horrible person.
It absolutely broke my heart to see him in such a state and all I could do was try to reassure him that it's normal to feel different emotions and that he is very much loved.

After this I contacted his school who arranged for him to have some counselling.

Fast forward to 2 days before half term was due to start and Ex texts DD asking if she wants to stay with him over half term. She said no as she was working and had already made plans but as per usual he just kept pestering her not taking no for an answer. He really upset and stressed DD out as she had had exams all week and had a 5 hour practical exam the following day. She went to school really stressed out for her exam and hadn't had much sleep due to feeling so harassed by her dad.

I sent him a text to say that DD felt like he was pestering her and that she'd gone to school feeling upset and stressed out for her exam which wasn't fair and asked if he could call me to have a chat about the DC.
Up until that point I don't think we'd discussed the DC properly as he just won't speak to me about them and if we do ever arrange anything he just goes back on it.

He called and I politely told him how both of the DC felt. That he can't expect to maintain a proper relationship with them when he only has any kind of contact with them less than a handful of times in a year.

I said that DS felt like he was the least favourite to which he replied "I treat all of my children equally" (he has 2 more DC with his DW) yet when I asked him as to why he paid no maintenance towards his eldest 2DC he said he cannot afford it. This is despite leading a fairly luxurious lifestyle, nice cars, huge house etc

Since I spoke with him he has done nothing but pester myself, and both DC saying he wants to speak with them. DD has refused point blank to speak with him, DS wants to but not on his own as he thinks it will be too awkward.
I suggested to Ex to give them some time and not push too hard especially DD who will dig her heels in. I suggested he get to know them again, dropping them a text once a week asking how their week has been, maybe making the effort to see them once a month, take them out for lunch that kind of thing.

That's not good enough for ex. He wants to speak to them NOW! Since DD has refused he's focusing on DS who doesn't want to either. He left a voicemail on my phone saying he doesn't want to leave it, wants to speak with DS face to face this weekend and and doesn't "see why it will be awkward, I am his dad after all".

I spoke to DS about having mediation with his dad and speaking to him that way if he doesn't want to do a face to face one on one with him, DS has agreed.

I spoke to ex this morning to explain that DS would like to talk with him through mediation, that I would contact his counsellor to see how I go about arranging something like that.
Ex got shitty with me but I'm trying my best.

15 minutes after we discussed the mediator he starts pestering DS again via texts about speaking with him this weekend and said "you can have your mum there if you like?".

DS hasn't replied but yet again ex has undermined me. I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. I tried to explain to ex it's not about him it's about the DC and what they want to do but I think it's fallen upon deaf ears.

HELP I just don't know what to do.

Stop being polite and offering solutions.

Tell him that you will be blocking his number temporarily and do it. Do so on the kids phones too. Make it clear it is just for a week or so to give them breathing space.

Agree
Block him

Dc are old enough to decide but pestering them is not the way to go.

Using d's counsellor good idea

I just always worry that I'm not doing my best for the DC. I always end up feeling guilty like it's somehow my fault.

DC and I definitely need some breathing space.
It feels like this isn't so much about the DC but him getting his own way. I've said leave it for now and give them some time so he has done the exact opposite and won't stop until he gets what he wants.

I suggest that what he is doing seems like harassment and would actually seek legal / specialist organisations' advice about ways to stop it.

DD might benefit from some counselling as well as DS.

Everyone needs to block him. Go no contact. Don't force your children onto their asshole father. (I'm NC with my asshole father 20 years now and I HATE it when others try to tell me to have a relationship with him, especially my Mother. It's my life. He's an asshole. This is all about him and has nothing to do with me. The answer is NO, I want nothing to do with him.) Interactions with our parents shouldn't end in tears.

Thank you for your replies.

I will ask DC to block him for a week to give them some breathing space.

I had a frank conversation with DS last night initiated by him. He said he thinks his dad was talking "BS" when he said he treats all of his children the same.

He's annoyed his dad has got a foreign holiday booked when he "can't afford" to pay any maintenance for himself and DD. He also said he is going to change the name from 'Dad' to 'Father' in his phone.
DS was pretty angry.

I have spoken to the Child Maintenance Options a couple of weeks ago. Do you think I should go ahead with a claim through the CMS or will that make matters worse right now?

Yes go ahead with cms.
Just don't pick up phone or read emails from him when they arrive.
Say nothing.

His anger his problem.

Block him on DS phone, tell DS you have done so. I assume you pay the contract and not DS so it's your choice.

A 13 yo needs you to make the decision to protect him.

Contact CMS on Monday and put in a claim.

DD is older enough to make her own decision. But try to get some couselling for her too.

None of this is your fault .

When I spoke to Ex yesterday to let him know DS didn't want to speak to him this weekend and I would try to arrange some mediation he got really stroppy with me like one of my DC do when they don't get their own way.

The trouble is that he is used to getting his own way with me. He usually goes about things in such a way that I find it impossible to say no to without making myself look like the big bad wolf or he just keeps on and on pestering and grinding me down until I find the whole situation so stressful I just give in.

In the past I haven't had the strength to battle with him and he's highly manipulative.

At Easter when DS went to stay with him for what I thought was 5 nights. It turned out to be 6 as he got DS to message me begging to let him stay an extra night as they had some exciting plans. It turns out they spent the day with some of Ex and DWs friends for a BBQ that had obviously been planned all along.

The last time DD ever stayed with him it was the summer holidays about 3 summers ago. Ex was living in a remote part of the country with not a lot for kids to do and DD didn't want spend the usual 3 weeks of the summer holidays there, just 2. It was all agreed between myself and ex, the travel details were all a bit sketchy as they always were, cos it's none of my business what his plans are with regards to the kids that's how it always felt.
In a nutshell ex lied to DC to try and keep them for an extra week by pretending that there were no travel means over the bank holiday. The problem was they lived on a small island overlooking the harbour. DD saw the ferry setting sail as per usual and could see that the flights were still taking off as normal. DD demanded to come home and they did the following day.

I just can't believe how stupid I've been over the years. I hate confrontation and he always has an answer when I say no and I can never think of a comeback.

mampam,

I would now block him on all your phones permanently; not just a week. He cannot be at all trusted to behave decently and is using these children as pawns in his game against you in the main. He could be well using them still as punishment against you for having the gall in his eyes to actually leave him, this perfect specimen. Such selfish and entitled men really do think they are doing nothing wrong here and there is no reasoning with such people. He also has no concept of boundaries (re pestering your son after you had discussed mediation).

Unfortunately such abusive people are master manipulators and can and do tie their victims up in emotional knots. I would not use a mediator; he could well manipulate that person also to take his side and he is not going to listen to that person either.

Claim maintenance as well for your children; its money that is for their benefit.

Thank you. I always try and put my own feelings aside and put the DC first. I guess that's where ex and I differ....he puts himself first.

The teacher who organised the counselling for DS was supposed to be speaking to the Sixth Form to get them to arrange some counselling for DD too so I must follow it up. I will contact the Sixth Form directly myself.

I've asked DH to start work an hour later tomorrow morn (he's SE) so I can phone the CMS in peace as we have a very lively and noisy toddler!

Yes we pay for DS phone contract. I will ask him to block his father when he wakes up.

Yes I do have a fab relationship with my DC as does DH as their SF. He regards them as his own children and really does treat them exactly the same as our other 2 DC.

Sorry Attila, crossed post.

Ex does have a HUGE sense of entitlement.
You are right he has always used the kids against me and does seem to go out of his way to do anything he can to piss me off which I've never understood.
An example of this was when he hadn't paid any maintenance for 2 years because he supposedly wasn't working. When I called the CSA to let them know a change of our address I asked them to look into it again. It turned out he had to pay maintenance again and they backdated it for 6 weeks.
Instead of paying it right away he bought DD an iPad for her birthday (normally it was £30 in a card) and DW got DD all excited about taking her on a shopping spree to which I said no way ( I was seriously the big bad wolf for this).
When ex finally did start paying the maintenance he paid the back dated money at a rate of 1/5 of 1 weeks maintenance extra per week and it took him over 9 months to pay 6 weeks money. It was a pittance anyway the weekly amount so it literally worked out at less than £10 extra per week!

The buying of the expensive Birthday present (never happened before or since) and the shopping spree were obviously designed to let me know that he could afford to pay the 6 weeks maintenance off in one go but chose to play silly buggers instead

It's this kind of shit that has been continual for nearly 13 years now and I'm tired.

When I confronted him about non maintenance payments he denied not having paid for that 2 years previously!

He now hasn't paid anything since August last year. I told him the money could go towards some extra driving lessons for DD or some extra much needed counselling for DS but he just kept saying he couldn't afford it. I pointed out that how did he think DH and I could "afford" the DC?......because we make sacrifices and go without in order to provide for them. His response..... "I can't afford it".

You need to take control of the situation and show your DC that you want what's best for them. Their father doesn't get to call all the shots. Stop dealing with him re maintenance and use the official channels and report him every time he fails to pay.
And block him from all your phones!

Block him. Explain to the kids that their father isn't behaving like a father and as he's always put himself first, from now on, your kids are going to put themselves first. Tell them they need feel no guilt whatsoever. By taking charge and telling them what to do, you'll be lessening their guilt as the decision will be made for them.

Ok I will speak to them both later when DD gets home.

Thank you all

I know you want to do the right thing for your children but i don't understand why you are encouraging the children to have a relationship with someone who sadly but clearly does not give a shit about them? I mean that kindly and am not having a go at you I am in the same boat and it is so clear from the outside i know it;s harder when you are in it!

Block him and can go and get stuffed and file a claim for CM.

He is a bully not a dad (or Father)!!

No advice except to say I can see why he's your ex- what an asshole!

So I have an update:

Ex contacted DC1 asked her to go to dinner last Friday eve. She agreed which is a complete turn around for her. Both DC's went and a few hours later came back crying. DC1 has basically told her father she is happy in her life and wants no more to do with him. He tried to guilt her, turn it back on her and blame me for a lot. She said she shouted at him and defended me (gave examples of things that I had no idea she knew about and didn't realise how perceptive she is).

Apparently it was left that DC2 would like to go and stay with his father one weekend every month.

Obviously I know that it won't be discussed with me. I know that ex will only contact DC2 with regards to it right at the last minute (as per usual) and everything will have to be dropped to accommodate him.

I can categorically say that this will not be happening. I told ex when I last spoke to him that he must give more notice when he wants to see the DC. If (and that's a big if) he is essentially coming back into our lives on a more regular basis I cannot let him dictate the terms at an inconvenience and such disruption to our lives again, this is how it's been for the past 14 years and I'm exhausted from it all.

By disruption I mean that DC2 starts to act up. Every time his father comes back into his life he becomes unbearable, takes it all out on us. He becomes rude, ignorant, obnoxious, throws his weight around and is generally an unhappy boy. He gradually comes out of it but it's hell on earth at the time, we have a few months of being on an even keel and then the whole thing starts again when his fathers pops up again.

DC2 has been in a vile mood all weekend and has point blank refused to go to school today. I'm at my wits end.

Is it too much to ask for ex to discuss arrangements with me and organise through me?

I'm going to have to refuse to be a push over and let DC2 go to stay with him at a moments notice. I know DC2 will hate me for it but I can't carry on like this.

It's not been discussed with me anyway but I'm not convinced that DC2 suddenly starting to go and stay with his father once a month is the best thing for him.

Not that my DH would ever tell me what to do but he doesn't think that DC2 at 14yo is capable of/should be making these decisions on his own. He is a very emotional and highly impressionable kid, easily made to feel guilty by his father and is desperately seeking his approval.

My DH and I feel that time is running out for us to try and undo some of the damage done by his father. I want to build up his self esteem, sense of self worth and self confidence and not have it brought down again.

Don't get me wrong, in an ideal world I would love for both DC1&2 to have a relationship with their father but at what point does it start to do more harm than good?

I just do not know what to do for the best? Sorry for the jumbled post, I'm all over the place here.

I think you DO know what's the best. Your children need routine, they can't cope with all the up-and-down that your ex subjects them to.

You're doing right by supporting your children emotionally. Your daughter has made her decision: you've told your ex that he has to give a decent amount of notice before picking your son up. So enforce that. When he next drops into your life and demands to see the children tell him it's not convenient, and that you'll need X days' notice from now on in. And then don't respond to anymore of his messages.

It's going to be hard because he'll contact your son direct. So don't let him do that anymore. Block him from your son's phone, or get your son a new number. You can do this.

Unfortunately ex will be able to contact DS directly. Although he doesn't have a phone right now he can be contacted by ex through social media.

I will put my foot down and not let him try and arrange things last minute. I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot he wouldn't stand for it and certainly wouldn't have put up with it for the last 14 years like I have, yes I am a mug! It's very difficult when you always feel like the big bad wolf and you know there will be hell to pay if you don't comply.

I tried to have a frank discussion with DS today which didn't go very well because a) he is so awe of his father at the moment he literally believes everything he's been told by him and I feel like DS just thinks I'm being deliberately mean about his dad (certainly not the case), b) I cut the talk short as I was getting angry, not at DS but at the things DS has been told about me and the pathetic excuses his dad has made. DS takes everything at face value, why wouldn't he? He's a kid! He believes everything he's been told.

Basically my ex has told the DC that the reason he hasn't paid maintenance over the years is because when we split up he took on all of my debt so as he's been paying this off he hasn't been able to afford to pay maintenance.

As I remember it we were married and we had debts. He did not take on all of them at all. I was a stay at home mum who when he left had to survive on income support until I could find a job. I was still left with some of the debt which was on a credit card which fast forward quite a few years my DH paid off.

He also made out to the DC that when he moved away 5/6 years ago that it was so he could earn more money to clear my debts

So it's my fault he had to move away. To pay my debts. Not because he and his DW were over £30k in debt and he went begging to his GM for the money and his own mother stepped in and wouldn't let his GM give him that amount but he left with £10k instead.
Our debts amounted to less than £10k of which I paid off £4.5k.
I could go more into the ins and outs of it all or about the debt he ran up on our joint bank account overdraft by wining and dining the OW but I just can't be bothered.
I'm just angry that he has basically blamed me for him having to move away so he could pay my debts. What a fucking hero.

The trouble is I think DS believes every word.

These men are never accountable and never take responsibility - of course it is your fault he doesn't pay child maintenance. I expect you are also t blame for the divorce in the first place and that he never wanted it etc etc