Suck it up or cut her out?

[CustardLover]

This is such a long story that I can't possibly do justice to it all so I will try and summarise the pertinent points without leaving out anything significant - no drip-feeding intended but it is still really long, sorry!

Essentially my DM and I are just at the end of the line. I love her deeply and dearly but I can't handle her toxicity any more. She has always been troubled; brought us up alone under great stress in the 80s, had huge fallouts with her family and completely antagonistic relationship with my DF (which I don't blame her for) so life has definitely been hard and she is a very negative person - always someone to blame for perfectly normal life setbacks - she has no emotional resilience and flies off the handle - at the bus driver, librarian, shop assistant etc at the drop of a hat.

We have been having an increasingly tense relationship since I was married almost a decade ago (she told me she didn't believe in marriage when I told her we got engaged). The wedding itself was all sorts of wrong - she insisted that the family with whom she had fallen out were invited, was perfectly lovely to them all night (I was delighted, thought it was all resolved) but little did I know that she was storing up all the slights and insults to add to her enemies book and keep her fuelled with vitriol for years.

I have since had DC and she is just utterly crazy now. Nothing is good or right in the world when it comes to them, or more specifically my eldest. (I am a selfish mother. Why did I have children if I was just going to work? My child is too hot / cold / shouldn't wear pull-ups / be in bunks. I don't feed them properly (beans on toast - completely selfish and lazy), their nanny is a drug dealer (she went to Poland once - no, I don't bloody know either) when did I last wash my outside fence? Etc) but all of this, while tedious, can be coped with.

My line has been crossed recently in two ways - firstly, she has massively taken against my youngest DS (3yo). Apparently he is a bully ('walks over' his older brother) - violent, jealous, aggressive, something is wrong with him, he's not normal, he needs proper discipline. What she means is she wants to hit him (she used to hit me with a belt). I am not sanctioning this one tiny bit and it's driving her wild. For the avoidance of doubt, this is literally based on NOTHING - for instance last week the DC were playing tag in the garden, when the youngest 'tagged' (tapped him on the hand and ran off) the elder (they were laughing and playing happily) she literally grabbed the little one, taking his arm out of his socket and screamed in his face that he was violent, naughty and disgusting. Obviously both children started immediately bawling. My DH was home and she then started screaming at him for being an ineffectual parent, in front of the children. I returned home from work soon afterwards and she then started on me and the fact that she 'sees through' my 3yo, that he's crafty and manipulative (cuddles are his cynical modus operandi apparently).

She has now decided that something is wrong with my DH - the second issue. He is a terrible father; he is grooming the younger one to bully the eldest for sport, because he likes to cause trouble (again, to be clear these are happy, close little boys - the eldest isn't a shrinking violet and the youngest isn't a demon) - why is DH so close to his sons? She finds this sinister, she thinks a child should only ever want their mother when sick/hurt and the fact that the boys will go to him when upset makes her think something is 'odd'. If one of the boys has a bruise (and they are little boys so their shins are pretty much always mottled), she suggests that DH has hurt them. She talks with poison and frequently uses horrible words and phrases like neglect and abuse (using pull-ups at night is abuse). Anyway, I could go on forever and this is already too long.

I love her but this is so damaging. My eldest said to his little brother that Grandma doesn't love him and the 3yo said 'I know [sigh]. I am naughty.' She spat on me in front of my children. She's just out of control and I don't want my children exposed to it any more. However she is alone - my DB has moved away because he can't bear it, she is isolated from all of her family and has no friends any more - we are all she has left. I feel so so selfish and weak - I feel like I should have better daughter - she is clearly bitter and lonely and I sometimes think she starts arguments just to have a conversation. I told her yesterday that she can't see us anymore unless she consents to counselling or family mediation and has just received alternatively outraged and heartbroken texts for 24 hours, with regular phone calls and voicemails full of hatred and sorrow. My DH has received just utter nastiness. I don't know what to do next.

This is absolutely heartbreaking! This isn't one incident, this is months of abuse that is insidious and severely detrimental not just to your sons self esteem but also to the relationship that your boys have with each other.

My in-laws are narcissistic and abusive, my dh grew up as the golden child only to be demoted to scapegoat when he resisted their need to control every aspect of his life. When we noticed they had turned on previous golden child ds and were now semi worshipping dd I intervened. In-laws took offence to my ds being terrified of them (after they said something terrifying but denied it and refused to apologise to him/ explain that they didn't mean it that way) and decided they wanted nothing more to do with their four year old grandson. They did however want to continue seeing two year old dd, I refused, you don't make differences with children.

I am severely disabled and at the time was being assessed by social work for a care package. The social worker told me that my ds's reaction to in-laws and what they had said to him was actually a child protection issue and if I hadn't intervened and gone no contact they would have had to get children and families social workers involved.

You are in a similar situation, this is a child protection issue! You have a duty to protect your children and that comes before any duty or obligation you may feel towards your Mother. Your Mother is a monster, a child abuser and you have grown up so used to her abuse that you cannot see the horrific and traumatising way she is treating your babies.
My ds is still terrified of my in-laws six years after we stopped contact

Please, your three year old is young enough that he might be able to forget her abuse.... Dd was two at the time and remembers more than I would like. She struggled at first as she loved my in-laws but there is no way I could allow the abuse and ostracism of my little boy to continue.
I know how hard it is to go NC, my dh has been through all of the emotions. But it was the right choice!

Keep her the hell away from your children, she sounds absolutely awful!

Thanks all. I've had more angry texts from her overnight saying 'all of this is my problem and fault for not disciplining my child properly' which just stiffens my resolve.

I suggest you keep the texts, but stop answering them. Her attitude is incredible. Or you could send one final message spelling out that she is an interfering old woman who is damaging your family, and that you and your DH will make your own decisions about your own family and DCs and it is none of her business. It is sad that she is isolated but as you recognise she has brought it on herself. She sounds like the worst sort of MIL nightmare for your DH.

My mother has seen my DCs once in 2 years. She isn't even as bad as yours and the dementia contributes to it (although she was always a selfish witch).
But the first time I saw sadness on my child's face because of the way she was behaving that was it, her contact with them got reduced to a couple of hours at Christmas, and even then that's carefully managed to minimise her damage.
No one deserves to have the role of grandparent, it's earned by being a good one.

At the same time as recognising what she is like you also excuse a lot of her behaviour when judging by the way she is, it was all probably because of her. There is something wrong with her, whether it be narcissist or BPD etc I don't know. But you cannot allow her to have anything more to do with your children and ideally not with you. Nothing you do will ever make her happy . Her whole raison d'etre is to cause grief, pitch people against each other and break up anything good in this world. You don't really talk a lot about what it was like growing up with her but I bet she was also against your friends or anything good in your life. I bet she found ways of criticising non existent stuff and posing everything.

There's a lot of reading material on toxic parents and narcissistic parents, have a read of them and maybe consider counselling.

Poisoning not posing everything

Cut her off and without a second glance. You never had a loving nor nurturing mother. She should have been a better parent, not you berating yourself for being a better daughter. Its been all her fault and doing, you have nothing to reproach yourself for. So what if she is now alone, that is because of her behaviours as well. Such disordered of thinking people do drive others away. Its not your fault she has some form of untreated and perhaps untreatable personality disorder. She is not up for seeking any help nor wanting help either.

She was not a good parent to you (understatement) and remains a poor example of a grandparent to your children. It is down to you to protect them from such toxic influences. Protect them.

Block all her ways of communicating with you all as of now.

No to any counselling or family mediation with her present; those simply do not work with such toxic people. She will simply manipulate these to use as a further stick to beat you with.

You need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

Do read the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages too and the resources at the start of it.

Um, OP - she used a belt on you in your childhood? But you 'love' her?
She has spat on you - but you 'love' her? She spat on you in front of your kids - but you love her?
She is abusing your youngest.
She is most definitely setting up a 'Golden Child' and 'Scapegoat' situation with your kids

BUT - sorry, you 'love' her?

NOPE. You feel intimidated into giving her what you beleive to be love.

She is alone (because of her own actions) and has no family, and that is her fault, not yours.

You cannot change her.

You cannot fix her.

You can only protect your poor children. Pleae please put their feelings and emotional well-being BEFORE hers!!! She made this situation. You need to stop her - by putting really really strong boundaries in place.

Don't listen to her whining and pleading and threats. Your children need you.

Having a nice dm is something I also fantasise about. .

Unfortunately for both you and I this isn't an option. .
I have been nc for a long long time...
It really is the best way.
Imagine your ds confiding in a teacher /other parent and you have ss at your door. .
You are risking losing your dc over this woman.

Big girls pants and do the right thing by your dc ASAP. .

You must protect your children from your mother now. You seem to feel strong obligation and guilt where she is concerned but she has pushed your boundaries to the limits and now crossed them. Your children need you to make this stop now as they have done nothing wrong. You also need to support your dh. I do not know how you have managed for so long.

My own dm was a very mild version of this full of imagined slights and offended every single day. However, she never ill treated my children, albeit was sometimes jealous I gave them my attention. They remember her with happiness, but your children are afraid now.

End this today before anything worse happens, and it will.

Yes she is mentally unwell.

I once worked in an acute psychiatric unit where there was a lady who had had her children removed from her when they were young and custody was given to their father.

Reading her notes one of the big red flags was the way she was talking about her 3 year old. How she was "manipulative" and she "could see right through her".

The notes expressed serious concerns that she was ascribing adult motivations onto a 3 year old and was clearly incapable of seeing them as the age they were.

She would say "look at her over there, looking at me. Evil".

She regularly beat them all for the most minor transgressions. This went in for years.

Anyway she eventually lost custody and 30 years later still hotly blamed everyone else and railed against the father. He was poison, he had brainwashed them etc etc.

Meanwhile they all eventually had a peaceful upbringing with the father but as adults every single one of them was no contact and one has taken out an order banning her from coming to her place of work (a pub) and screaming at her.

You have to recognise this as a very very unwell and unstable person. And you need to be like those kids Dad, and remove them.

OMFG! I thought I was transported back in time & was reading a snapshots of my own life.

My mother has been dead nearly 5yrs. My girls are 36 & 34. I admit the toxic behaviour and trauma of my mother is diminishing with time. On the odd occassion lately when bringing up family matters of the past, I've been rather charitable in my attitude towards her. But just last week my youngest Dd dragged up a memory from when she was 3. Her face was full of anger. I was like WTF (inside my head). This reaction from Dd really rocked me emotionally. So OP, I can only give you an opinion from the position of hindsight.

If I could do it all again with emotional maturity and the collective wisdom of Mn at its best, I'd go no contact. I was racked with FOG for over 40yrs at her hands. She even went through a phase of attempting suicide every 6 or 7 wks. I moved hundreds of miles away. She phoned me up one night to tell me she was going to kill herself. I called the Samaràtins out of desperation. The guy on the other end of the phone offered to give her a call. He did tell me it wasn't policy, but out of pity for me he did. He called me several hours later to update me. I could feel his exasperation over the phone. She told him to eff-off and hung up. Crazy! It's now a source of laughter in our small family. Grandma exasperated a kind helpful human being trained to talk down those wishing to harm themselves. Boy was she something else.

Sorry to hijack your thread. Don't be me further down the line. I nearly spat my brew out on reading you OP. Get yourself some therapy. Never mind her? Get strong. Get educated. Get equiped.

You must cut her off. You have nothing to reproach yourself for. She is mentally unstable and a risk to your kids. You know this and already know that this has to end but (as you are such a lovely person ) you are anguished over it and wracked with guilt.
But you have to think that you do not want yout sons to turn round as adults and say that they were scarred by her abuse of them ! How would you feel then?
My father had an abusive mother and one day she threw my brother across the garden as she was in a temper . We were staying there and my parents instantly loaded the car with my grandmother collapsing on the floor in hysterics . We drove home and left her there screaming all sorts of abuse at us.
My parents walked away and put us first. I am so glad they did. Your sons are the MOST imp people in your life along with dh. Whatever you do things she will not change so give it up.
I am sorry you have had to endure so much at your mothers hands but it is time to let go x

You need to go NC. She is very unstable. She's upsetting your family. Take that power away from her. Please.

For your own sanity I think you need to block her number

Please protect your children. The damage she could do them individually and their relationship to each other is huge. You are only being a bad parent if you allow her to stay in their life.

If you want to see her separately in order to try and get help for her that's up to you but I wouldn't.

Please tell your little one he's not naughty. I might even say something like 'Grandma's brain doesn't work quite right so not everything she says is true'

Firstly please reassure your little boy he is NOT naughty, violent or disgusting. They are awful words to use to him, particularly when he hadn't done anything wrong!

Secondly please do not let her near your children any longer! She might be your mother but she has abused her own children and now she is abusing your children! Read back over your post and imagine you are reading about someone else's life. What would you advise?

She's fallen out with her family and your brother has moved to escape her - now you must get away from her. It's one thing allowing her bile and drama to impact on your life but what about your poor husband and children?

I hope you make the break soon and find yourself some peace from her.

She is poisonous, absolutely poisonous. Cut her out of your lives. Protect your children and yourself.

I know you love her and want to have a loving relationship with her. But that would require her to be a different person and that's not going to happen. Yes, therapy might help her but only if she actively wants to change, which she almost certainly doesn't.

If you feel unable to cut her out of your lives completely you are going to have to set and enforce a lot of very strong boundaries, which is going ot be very difficult. I'm not sure how effective that would be: she sounds so much like my mother (who I haven't seen for a few years now, thank goodness) and I know my mother loved to use the boundaries I set to make fun of me, to cause trouble with, and so on.

I'm so sorry you have this dreadful issue in your life, but I promise you life is much easier and more pleasant without people like this in it.

Thank you all for your advice - it has been very helpful. I told her at the weekend that I only wanted to speak with a third party, one of her friends (so she doesn't feel ganged up on) or a neutral figure, and that I don't want her to have access to the children. She has gone bananas with a lot of angry messages, to me and DH (she blames him, says I'm frightened of him etc). It's been silent for about 18 hours and now I feel worried about her feeling desolate and alone, and grieving for the loss of her, while still not wanting to see her. I didn't reply to her over the weekend at all as it only fuels the drama and I didn't answer the phone.

I am sad. I have lost my mum. But I feel relieved that my DC won't have to witness that nonsense any more.

You have not lost your mum, you have saved your children, saved your family and marriage.

Your mum is clearly VERY unwell. Please get distance asap and get someone else to help her. You cannot.

I'm sure she is fine, probably giving you the silent treatment to punish you. If she is alone, it is of her own making.

Yes, you have lost the mum you have. You have lost the mum you never had too.

I know this is painful, it's excruciating. I have had similar, but on a minute scale in comparison.

From experience, you would benefit from therapy, she has clearly treated you abysmally over the years. There was nobody to protect and save you. But you are there for your kids.

Well done OP.

As others have said she doesn't sound mentally well at all. Does she have community mental health support? Does she use any local social care services?

Not suggesting you should take responsibility for this - but I wonder if it might be appropriate for her to be in a home or some kind of assisted living?

Yes to all of Hissy's post ^

Stay strong. You need to do this

Thanks again. No, she has not been diagnosed as having MH issues and doesn't use any social or community resources and I don't see how I could organise that - I would love her to be able to speak to someone else, either a counsellor or medical practitioner but she will never take that step herself. She is still young - mid 60s - and she still works. She is great at her job and doesn't have any issues there that I know of (she's been there for over a decade). I can't see her seeking help for herself - she definitely doesn't think she needs it - the problem lies squarely with everyone else.