Toxic atmosphere - up with baby and so tired

[Ineedacupofteadesperately]

I'm just hoping for a hand hold really. Have been solely doing nights with baby since about 4 weeks (bf)- so about 10bweeks now totally exhausted. MIL visiting soon so H wants house tidied (i am sahm). Constantly criticising my housekeeping. Yes I'm not perfect and I prioritise time with DC over tidying but keep dc clean and in clean clothes do all the shopping cooking etc. I prioritise cleanliness over tidiness, he's most interested in tidiness. He's even suggested maybe I dont need to sterilise bottles for expressed milk and am just creating work (i'm not mad right, this is important?!). He's gone on an OTT rampage of cleaning/tidying today, including rearranging shelves, but doesn't seem to care that older DD has dirty hair. Didn’t push to give her a bath as I know he'd see that as obstructive. Normally he doesn't even pick up his clothes where they drop. He wants things to be tidy but he wants me to do it and doesn't want the day to day bother of picking up after himself. Anyway am so tired but can't sleep after last baby feeding because I feel so miserable and going over in my head the things he's said to me. I keep on justifying myself but really it's not about each event is it? For example, last night i chucked a wet nappy on top of a full (small) bin in the middle of the night and it fell off onto the carpet - today he noticed and was going on about how gross it was and couldn't i even manage to put it in the bin. It was the middle of the night, I'm exhausted, i hadn't noticed. I immediately emptied that bin (and I can't even remember when he last emptied that bin and I do empty it regularly but I don't care about that, I care that he's so horrible to me over something so small). I just want someone to be nice to me and to not be going over this in my head so i can sleep before the baby wakes again.....oh here we go, too late....

Hmm. He's not really covering himself in glory with his parenting, is he?

It's fine dd having treat days, but he is her parent! He is behaving like a grandparent who comes round when it suits them, indulges the dc, and then disappears before the real work starts!

"I do feel guilty when I get up and DD not fed though"

Do you realise how crazy that is? You feel guilty because your shit husband isn't carrying out the very simple parenting duty of feeding his child?!

He's neglectful. When he "looks after" the children, he doesn't even feed them properly. Giving them sugary foods and nothing nutritious all day isn't a "treat day". It's irresponsible and it's terrible parenting.

Wake up and smell the shit, love.

Sorry to go on about this but I think it's very interesting that you feel guilty instead of feeling angry with him about something he's done wrong. It sounds as if he's done a very good job of conditioning you to take the blame for everything, including his (significant) shortcomings. It's one of a few worrying signs I've noticed of a toxic relationship. Does he do (m)any things on this list of signs of emotional abuse? (I might be wrong but there are enough possible signs to make me wonder.)

AnotherEmma - my immediate thoughts reading OP's first post was that she was being emotionally abused. (I know I am in same situation 😒)

I could of written OP's post!
Check out narcissistic personality traits x

Sadly I would agree from bitter experience

I agree - he's sounding worse the more you write. Being nicer to you when other people are around is so like my narc XH was, appearance always being more important than substance to him.

Thanks again for the feedback. Yep, you're right and I do feel angry when he doesn't step up and give her breakfast but I do also feel guilty, if that makes any sense - because it's not her fault. Thank you for the reality check though - you are all right that I have got into the habit of accepting blame for things that actually aren't my fault, I think because I've been thinking everything to do with home is 'my job' because I am a SAHM. In the week it's my job to get her breakfast (and to be fair to DH since baby's been born there have been a few mornings I've been too tired and he's stepped in and done it even when it's a work day) but at the weekend it's really not, it should be shared. I think this is one of the problems with being a SAHM though - you just tend to do things because you do them the rest of the time anyway (or maybe it's just me). To be totally honest though, there is an element of me being a bit (possibly a lot) controlling about things like cooking hot meals- I don't like the way he does it and so I don't like him doing it (I like things being super healthy with loads of veg and also I'm a bit OCD about hygiene when cooking). It's the reverse for cleaning the car, I don't do it to his standard, so he always does it .

I have wondered if he's emotionally abusive at times. I actually had a chat with the HV when she asked me if I thought he was being emotionally abusive and my answer was "when does it cross the line from just not being very nice and not getting on to being emotionally abusive"? Some of the things on that list ring a bell, but not all - he doesn't control what I do or stop me seeing people, he doesn't control finances (we have a joint account, I have total freedom about what I spend money on). He can be incredibly supportive at times - when I was looking for work he would be really supportive, read my applications, and encouraged me to go for jobs using my qualifications and he was actively against me going for a minimum wage job and offered to do overtime instead (as that would bring in more money per hours worked if you see what I mean).

The thing I hate the most that he does is that sometimes he tells me how I feel and I can protest until I'm blue in the face but he acts like he doesn't believe me. I hate this, I'm not a child or mentally incapacitated ffs. He'll say something like 'you seem really fed up with me' and I'll say 'no, I'm really not, I'm just a bit tired' but he just won't accept it. Really pisses me off.

Other worrying signs: He thinks he's right all the time (and I think he's like this in life in general and his job is quite high status and sort of feeds that I think too). He definitely tries to shift blame to me sometimes. I've been fighting back (saying things like 'I'm a SAHM not a slave') but then we argue and DD gets upset (and I feel guilty), but I feel it's better I fight back than just model being a doormat. I just hope the counselling helps. We'll see. It will depend on whether he acknowledges his behaviour I suppose. He has apologised for the cleaning rant so perhaps there is hope?

He doesn't have to do everything on the list to be emotionally abusive. Just one thing on the list is one too many. But if he does several things it begins to look like a pattern of abuse.

"he was actively against me going for a minimum wage job and offered to do overtime instead (as that would bring in more money per hours worked if you see what I mean)"
You've presented this as an example of him being supportive. But was he really?? Even with a minimum wage job, you would be doing something outside the home, gaining professional experience, and earning your own money. Crucially, it could be the first step back towards financial independence. Him doing overtime doesn't achieve that at all. It might mean more money for the household but it keeps you dependent on him and working as his "slave" at home.

"The thing I hate the most that he does is that sometimes he tells me how I feel and I can protest until I'm blue in the face but he acts like he doesn't believe me. I hate this, I'm not a child or mentally incapacitated ffs. He'll say something like 'you seem really fed up with me' and I'll say 'no, I'm really not, I'm just a bit tired' but he just won't accept it. Really pisses me off."

That's called gaslighting. Classic abuse tactic. Look it up.

Emotional abuse stems from beliefs about power and control, as opposed to equality. So your question about what's the difference between EA and just not getting on: you can not get on, or not be nice to someone while still recognising them as adult, human, equal in worth to you. But you can treat somebody very nicely (most of the time) while believing you have certain rights over them.

Your H sounds like he fits the second option. You feel he treats you like a child - not good. He thinks he's always right - one of the types of abuser in the excellent Lundy Bancroft book, I believe.

Oh, and does he put you in a position where you feel you have to be controlling re food in order not to be neglectful? Some men do things intentionally badly so that they're not asked to do it again.

It sounds like you are making a big effort and I hope it is worth it- it does sounds like you are being controlled, subjugated and gaslighted all at once. You poor thing. I remember very well the early weeks of solo night feeds (well actually I don't- my brain has helpfully blocked them for me, which is nice, but I know they existed.)

One thing- I never ever sterilised bottles for expressed milk, as I was told by our paeds consultant that it's not really necessary for breast milk. So he's not altogether wrong about that, but he is bang out of order on everything else.

OK, this is all very useful and interesting. Emma - he did encourage me to do volunteering so that was outside the home and more relevant to my profession too (and looked better on the CV) however, you're right I wasn't earning my own money. He has however always been very good at insisting it's 'our' money that he earns and not his. Most of our bank accounts are joint and in fact I have more stuff just in my name than him - it's historical stuff from before we were married but he's never ever put pressure on me to make it joint.

But yes, gaslighting, I've heard and read about it. I don't think he fits the typical pattern but I do think at times he's so self absorbed that he veers close to it - when he refuses to acknowledge my reality. In general he is the type to dwell on and hold grudges and I'm a much more live in the moment kind of person so I think to some extent he projects how he would feel in a certain situation and just finds it difficult to believe anyone would be different. He didn't used to be like this though- we were together for 10 years before DC and most of that married. All this only started when DC1 arrived, and it was very, very gradual and has got noticeably and suddenly worse with DC2. Can men get PND? Is that even a thing?

Well they can get PND but it's also possible for men to only become abusive (or reveal their abusive tendencies) during pregnancy or after the birth of the first child. It's no surprise really given that it's a lot harder to end the relationship when there's a child involved. If they were abusive before children you might be less willing to put up with it.

I think abuse is 100% more likely than PND based on what you've told us. Perhaps he is narcissistic as a PP suggested. Have you seen the abuser profiles?

No, Emma thanks for the link, will have a read. Thanks all for being so supportive.

I dunno if he's abusive Ineedacupoftea but I could have written your post with our first baby. He was MUCH better with the second. However we did eventually split up...he could be very difficult and hurtful, but he was definitely not abusive. Nor did or does he ever feed the kids rubbish and park them in front of the the TV.

In your DH's defence, he's agreed to some counselling which I think was probably very difficult for him and he has also reached out to you and apologised. On the other hand, he is certainly unimaginative, particularly as this isn't your first baby. Apart from not considering what your day is really like, he also perhaps doesn't take your reality seriously, by dismissing your feelings or refusing to recognise that you prioritise cleanliness over tidiness (we also had this - ExH would be obsessive about the order of jars but never clean the shelf they sat on. It's an indication that it's not about order, it's an expression of some sort of other dissatisfaction because it isn't logical).

If your DH ticks anything like my ExH I would suggest some negotiating some concrete things he can do and see if they help. I would keep off discussing feelings for the beginning, apart from at counselling - men like this usually hate these conversations. First up, he must feed your DC regular meals at appropriate times that are not rubbish. Write him out a schedule, leave him food. I know this shouldn't be necessary but start at level 1 and praise him lavishly for success. Secondly, can he help with the nights? For example do last feed while you go to bed early, or get up with DD at 5AM and do the early shift? If you can get a block of sleep you will feel completely different and this may give you a new perspective on his behaviour (or it may not, which will also tell you something). Actually I think a flow chart as an aid to understanding is also a good idea because he sounds like a guy who might find it easier to think in these sorts of terms.

And I would go back to work. Hopefully it's just a difficult time because you are both knackered with two young children. But I would not remain a sahm in this kind of atmosphere. You can tell him you've changed your mind, that full-time being at home is very hard work and very isolating and you need a different balance for your happiness. Who knows, he may also be feeling under pressure being the sole earner, I don't know.

Thanks Prezel. I don't really think that DH is abusive, he oscillates in his behaviour. I think he might be depressed and taking it out on me at times. All the information I've been given on here is useful though - I know the signs now, which can only help me in the future.

I completely agree about the work. I'm thinking creatively now because obviously with a baby things get more difficult in terms of childcare, the costs of childcare etc. I'm looking into doing some freelance work, even on a voluntary basis to begin with to just get back into the swing of working, build my confidence and get recent references, but yes - I think working is key even if only part time at first while baby is little. (I hate the idea of leaving DC2 when little but I suppose I'll just have to find an environment I'm comfortable with).

"Write him out a schedule, leave him food."

What?! NO. No, no, no. The OP has enough to do already. Her husband is not a fucking child. He can organise his own time and sort out the bloody food.

Oh and don't fall into the trap of telling yourself it's depression and not abuse, OP. There's a big difference between the two. Depression is no excuse for treating people badly.

It may lighten your load a bit to stop sterilising bottles. My youngest DC is almost 7 but in 2010 there had been a change of approach to (over) sterilising and the HV advised the hot cycle on the dishwasher was adequate. You might want to ask the HV. At the time they were reluctant to put that advice in print in case it was taken up too willingly by more chaotic and less able parents. You can always scald them with boiling kettle water before use if it worries you. The bottles turn orange if you've had tomato sauce on the plates alongside them!