has anyone decided to KOKO with a not-great-but-not-abusive relationship?

[stealtheatingtunnocks]

Been married for 15 years. The last 5 have been poor, just little time spent together and drifting along, like many couples. Prior to that, it wasn't great as one of our kids was chronically sick. And, before that, it wasn't great because I had storming PND.

So, we kind of avoid each other and are exasperated with each other. But, he's polite, he works hard, he's a good dad (or, as good as he can be) and he says he wants the marriage to work and that he loves me. Just not, it seems, enough to actually want to spend time with me, plan anything together, share a bed, have a laugh or touch me.

I can't decide whether it's best to limp on, keeping our vows, and being borderline fed up, or, finish it because life is too fucking short.

The kids are happy and secure, we'd be reasonable parents if apart.

I did make vows. I meant them. But...

So, has anyone just made the best of a slightly-less-than-average marriage?

Penelope

If there's no trust there is no relationship. Do not sell yourself down the river for this man out of some sense of duty, your children or financial security. He is the one who has had an emotional affair, used porn, taken Viagra and has now lost interest in sex; no-one put a gun to his head and made him do those things. Keeping the phone almost surgically attached to you is one possible indicator of an affair. He did this of his own accord and he is not worthy of you now. He is not fit to tie your shoes!

Where's his remorse for his actions?.

Your children will come to realise that life at home is not good and they will come to be aware of the problems you are having between you and their dad. Do not do your bit to do that to them either.

Ah, well, his parents are very stiff-upper-lipped types, Atilla. Lovely people, but, appearances matter to them more than much else. Pillars of the community.

I do think the marriage counselling is just a ploy to demonstrate willingness. There is no actual change, just a lot of words.

And, thank you for saying that about my expectations - I really do think my expectations are reasonable! He was very upset when I pointed out that he's breaking his marriage vows, that "love and cherish" is no less important than "keep your cock in your boxers".

He's very defensive. Says he's afraid to talk because everything he says is wrong, does nothing because everything he does is wrong.

So, i gave him a list of three things I needed: 5 min of conversation a day, a hug without any expectation of sex and a date night a month.

In a decade, he's never fucking done those things. I reduced myself to that list of three things, and he doesn't do them. They'd cost him nothing but effort. He just can't be arsed.

He's texted to suggest we go for a walk tonight. Suspect that's because we had a fall out over me coming home (was away with work at the weekend) to find him drunk celebrating the rugby, the kids in their jammies, no dinner organised at 6:30pm and nothing for packed lunches/uniforms brought in, but I knew he'd been to the supermarket and bought wine because the kids told me.

I did say to him "if we were living in a sink estate and social services walked in on this they'd have an opinion about it". He responded with "actually, we've had a great time without you". It took me until this morning to get an answer about his drinking in front of the kids - it's not the first time. It's not unreasonable to have a drink, but, there's 4 bottles of wine in the recycling. That's a lot in two and a half days when you're in charge of two kids, one of whom has a history of serious illness.

Which is a reason to stay. I don't trust him to do anything other than play the x box and order in pizza - and am not sure I trust him to look after them properly.

Fuck. This is worse than I thought. It's good to talk, isn't it?

Thanks, Lego.

I'll have a look. Soul destroying is about right.

Still think it can be salvaged with some counselling, we've had a lot of shit to deal with and didn't pull together because it was a lot of shit and we deal with stuff differently. There wasn't time to nurture our marriage, too busy firefighting. He does feel like he can do nothing right, I'm not blameless in this.

It's such a shame. He's really good at all the things I suck at, and vice versa. We should jigsaw together perfectly.

Tunnocks your last message is EXACTLY what I would say about my marriage. Which, apparently, is now over after 28 years. Just FYI.

So basically he will say what he needs to you get you to stay and never changes. Is your councillor good? If so I would tell him now and use the remaining sessions to talk through the fallout. You need to rip off the sticking plaster. The idea of big exam years coming up would be the impetus for me.

You know what's good for marital harmony?

A house fire.

Just a small one, but, big enough to frighten everybody into thinking about what really matters in life.

Hurrah for smoke alarms - woke DH up, who woke me and the kids. No real damage, burned wooden floor, couple of bags of books burned and a plastic box melted. Ten minutes later it would have been a different story, the bags of books (on their way to a charity shop) were alight.

Anyway, DH and I were a team, sorting it all out and comforting the children.

I felt really quite fond of him and deeply, deeply relieved that we were all present and correct.

So. Back to mulling.

Oh Tunnocks! Are you all ok? Was it last night? Are you able to stay at home, not too much damage?

Crikey. Am glad it pulled you together though. I know what you mean about needing a reminder of what's really important.

Thanks for your thoughts Attila. I think I nearly agree with you but leaving is such a big thing that I have to be really really sure.

Dear Tunnocks.
Your marriage sounds like mine was. I agonised, for years, often on here, and then I left, with my 3 kids.

And I discovered so much happiness and joy again in the world, and in myself and in a new partner. The happiness one can have when you leave what sounds like a toxic marriage is incredible.

I also had what I call the 'low level discontent' - a constant niggling sensation that something was a bit 'off' or that I was too 'demanding'... turns out they are classic symptoms of living with a narcissist.

I'm not saying your husband is, but it's worth exploring and reading about; I'm afraid you might find some similarities.

Narcissists do a fabulous job of making everything look great on the outside ( he worked hard, was outgoing, we had a 5 bedroom house blah di blah) but are pretty shit at the 'small stuff', like being living, caring, making you a cup of tea, etc... which is actually the huge stuff, and represents kindness, empathy, etc. The 'going through the motions' that you mentioned was a red flag for me as a narcissist cannot EVER be bothered to changed or arsed to do stuff that doesn't directly please them.

Personally I'm so glad I'm posting from the other side, having left, so my 2p's worth is that it is worth making the leap as life is too short.

A final aside - turns out I was in a toxic marriage and I was deeply unhappy but couldn't put my finger on it because it all looked so good from the outside and some bits were good-ish.

I'm not condoning leaving on a whim, or not working at a marriage. But in your post I recognized how I felt, which was 'Is this 'enough' to leave?' and 'will this get better?.' The 'enough' is how YOU FEEL. If it doesn't feel right or ok for you, then that's your answer.

Mine was more than enough to leave and these things never get better. If you are with someone toxic like this and this isn't just a bad patch, know that these people don't change.

You've had great advice on this post and many different perspectives which will help you, and I hope you get some inner peace and clarity.

Penelope - we're totally fine, thanks. Hardly any real damage, just a lot of smoke.

Has spurred me on to doing a bit more housework!

Bright, yep, I've wondered about narcism. He's got very little empathy - well, he does feel empathy, but, not for people in his immediate circle. It's as if he doesn't know what to say and so says nothing. Or does nothing, apart from ticking along supplying the cash and expecting that to suffice.

But, he's not manipulative. He just does his own thing. I genuinely don't think he's bad - I wonder whether he's got aspergers. I'm no psychiatrist, but, he definitely fits a lot of the diagnostic criteria.

I don't doubt that I'd be happier on my own. I am very pleased for the people on this thread, like you, who have made it work. Guess I'm wrestling with what feels like an inherent selfishness - by putting myself first I will upset the lives of four other people.

Can you tell I was brought up Catholic?

I'm in a similar situation although my dp is a very difficult person to live with. He can be miserable, negative and his health isn't great (which makes everyone else's life a misery). We have plodded along for years now. We do nothing together as a couple, never go out socially or for nights away. I usually take the kids places, he sometimes drags himself along (probably out of duty).
I have little or no feelings for him anymore, we share a bed (not always) but haven't had s*x in months now. I have no desire to either. I stay up late watching movies, he goes to bed early every night.
Its only really financial issues and newly bought house that keep me there now. We have considered trying to sell the house but we will make a loss on it which we can't afford so i feel like life is on hold again.
I also checked tax credits and couldn't afford the childcare so have been holding off until both kids at school. Then I feel like I'm just prolonging the agony. The thought of carrying on my whole life like this is depressing but there just never seems a good time to call it a day, or I feel I don't have the strength.
So, you are not alone in going through this. I think everyone has their trigger points and you will reach yours at some point.

Yep. I think you're right, Hutch.

There's not a lot of fighting or disagreement at home. We actually parent fairly well together as a team - and, though I see lots of couples manage to raise kids effectively when they live apart, I think that'd be really difficult for us.

He is a good man, trying his best. It's just a shame that his best is not really what I need.

So, plan is to do more to make myself happy. I'm going to stop procrastinating and doing things that i think might help us and instead do lots of things which will help me.

My prediction is that'll keep me going for another decade. Then, we'll see.

It sounds like you've reached some sort of resolution Tunnocks. Good for you I wish you luck.