Is this gaslighting? Please help me understand

[BellarinatheCAG]

Hi,

I've been a lurker for about a year, first post and unfortunately its in relationships.

Brief background: 35yrs, female, married 14.5yrs, on brink of divorce (just started marriage counselling), not british, no children, living as an expat "trailing spouse" so away from any family and support system.
Husband: 43yrs old, British/German and married once before.

So about 3 weeks ago, H comes home and very casually says the marriage is over for him. Now we haven't had a always smooth sailing marriage but I always believed there was a good foundation and shared principles and beliefs. We always had a good laugh together, agreed on stuff like politics, mutual love of our pets etc.

The problems in the marriage that have always been highlighted have always been laid squarely at my doorstep. Namely my health (undiagnosed and untreated hypothyroidism/ Hashimoto's, PCOS, Endometriosis, possibly CFS and chronic insomnia); our sporadic sex life; me not getting along with his mother/family; my temper and my moods.

I have always felt like he's not as committed to me and the relationship as I am, not as supportive or understanding and not as loving and giving as I think a husband should be. I have constantly been made to feel that the feelings Im feeling are not real. It's either he didn't say what I'm claiming he did or I misunderstood him, or I've jumped to the wrong conclusion or its all in my head or im projecting my insecurities at him or I'm probably depressed and need to get help because im acting crazy/irrational.

Because I already had self confidence issues and because I came into the marriage with a open heart and because I shared all my fears with him in hindsight it was easy for him to play on them.
I've been fighting and internal battle for so long suppressing and convincing myself that its all me and fighting to keep the relationship by continually bending and giving in because after all the problems are all with me.

I have gone from a 47kg active person full of life to a 76kg creature that can't even get out of bed! My health struggles have been my own problem to deal with, I've had to lean on friends to support me in my darkest time, get me to hospital, be at my side through procedures etc. I've had to put up with his totaly lack of empathy, demands about why I'm not doing xyz, looks of disgust etc

I've been subjected to racial abuse from his mother, systemic starvation while in the UK visiting them (long story), humiliated publicly because I'm "poor", invasion of my privacy (go through my stuff, walk into the room when im asleep etc), ridiculed for my illnesses (apparently yoghurt cures endometriosis) and a mockery made of my religious beliefs but it must not be true because his mother is a kind and loving person and I'm sure didn't mean it that way.

In the last year I've really fought hard to get the medical treatment I need, to support my body and eat nourishing food (he doesn't/can't cook so if I'm too sick to cook, I dont get to eat bse where we live is so remote and no takeaways or online supermarkets/convenience food). I've been working on my spiritual side because that brings me comfort. I finally feel like I can see life in colour and not dark and grey.
Obviously with this has come my ability to question the state of things, to voice and stand by my feelings opinions. I would like to start a family and i definitively need to move from where we live now as it's not ideal for me for many many reasons (weather, no fresh fruits and veg, medical services, support system).

I thought we were on the same page, we had what I thought was a lets get rid of all the venom and anger and start afresh and commit to doing what the other person needs talk. I threw myself into it and was really pleased about how i was feeling and what we were achieving until 3 weeks ago when he just says "I want a divorce". Despite my shock I did try to ask what is the reason, how can i change, what can i do. Give him the benefit of doubt he's frustrated, its a phase/mid-life crisis, I need to be more loving and supportive etc
He has spent the last 3 weeks shredding everything i believed in and basically affirming my feelings were correct all along to the point that last week something inside me just clicked into place.

I began to see him for who is actually really is and not who I thought he was. All these incidences and events came flooding back, all his comments and actions now make sense. His attitude to me and what he thinks of me.
I believe he has been gaslighting me (or is it I've been gaslit??!) for so long and so subtly. I feel a lot of damage has been done and i feel like i need to heal and forgive him and move on.

I got us an apppointment with a marriage counsellor (this was made when he first told me about the divorce and i thought we could work on the marriage) but as there was no availability at the time the appointments have just taken place yesterday.

The marriage counsellor met with him first and he has lied through his teeth about everything that has led the marriage counsellor to believe that the issues are solvable.
He has still maintained he wants out but the reasons he has given are "my wife doesnt meet me at the door when i come home, she's always in her pyjamas, never wants to go out"...which out of context are true but haven't been the case for the last year or so. No mention that this was during a period of time when I was so ill my TSH levels were 0.0000 not registering on the scale, vitamin D was 2, my hair was falling out, i could go 48hours without sleep, every bone, muscle and joint hurt.

The marriage counsellor wants me to give it one more try (despite him not commiting), has never heard of the term gaslighting and seems to think I'm being egotistical and stubborn which has lead me to question myself again...was I/am I being gaslighted?

All I want is to heal and forgive and not have to carry this emotional baggage anymore but I'm been made to feel im being unreasonable.

I would just like some unbiased opinions because I feel like getting drawn back into the cycle of questioning the validity of my feelings.

I have to say I have not been a perfect wife, I have my fair share of faults and reactions im not proud of. I swear a lot when im angry and have broken stuff and find it very hard to forgive and forget and move on from betrayal and hurt. So I have also contributed negatively to this marriage though never maliciously and with harmful intent or plotting and planning. Just bad and wrong reactions to situations and those overwhelming emotions.

Apologies for the very long post, I've tried not to leave out important details but keep it brief. I hope someone will respond.

What is coming across strongly to me is that you both want to end the marriage and move on? Did I read that right? If so then (a) I wouldn't waste money on that particular counsellor as they are obviously trying to flog a dead horse and (b) I would find yourself a counsellor to see you individually and not your husband as they could help you with moving on emotionally. (c) I would also get some solid legal advice as my guess is your husband will turn very nasty about a divorce once he realises that is what you want. Good luck, hope you get through and get a fresh start.

But at what point,Les, has anyone said OP is faultless? We have said that the relationship is unhealthy and doesn't sound like it's worth saving for either of them.

You said something cruel and you're now twisting things to justify it. That, in itself is a type of gaslighting, come to think of it. You are behaving in an unnecessarily defensive and inflammatory manner. You could just apologise for being a bit of a dick in your first post having not even bothered to read the full OP before posting. It's people like you who give mumsnetters a bad name and prevent people reaching out for help.

Thank you so much Racoon. I will ignore the MiserableOne.
To the poster who recommended the thyroid website, thank you too. I have joined it as well.

It really is such a horrible disease and unfortunately there is not a lot of research, education or awareness on it. There definitely is a strong connection with hypothyroidism and emotional/mental health. Unless you have experienced it, its very hard to explain to someone the sheer levels of exhaustion, the brain fog, the muscle pains, the digestive issues etc etc. It robs you the ability to function like a normal human being.
I didn't choose to get sick, it happened. Its taken its toll on me in every possible way and has changed me but it doesn't take away from the reality of how I was/am treated or how I felt.
I would have loved to have met him at the door when he came back from work every single day whilst simultaneously running a business, driving alone for 3 hours to get to hospital appointments and meet clients and study for a degree as well as do all the other "domestic chores" bse that is the ideal image of marriage for him.

I think I will cease the counselling and focus on my exit with as much dignity and integrity I can muster. I just need to look forward and trust that this will pass.

OP, I read this in horror at your situation and how your feelings must have been so hard to hide. No wonder you are ill if you have never been able to express your feelings to the person you love. I'm so glad you can see him for who he really is and have started to grow into the person you want to be.]
It sounds like your stbex didnt like you being you and has subtly squished you into being someone he wants you to be. IYSWIM.
Leave. Find a person-centred counsellor to talk to and help you recover.

Best of luck, its not easy but you know you need to leave for you

Les-If you have nothing nice to say, please dont say anything. OP is vulnerable and asking for help.
Raccoon-after encountering you on a previous thread, I find it ironic you told Les to impart wisdom elsewhere when you refused to do so yourself.

Either way, no point de-railing the thread, OP I hope you find happines with someone who treats you better than this, you deserve it.

It will pass.

It will be shit but remember without his put downs and blame constantly laid at your feet you will be much stronger and able to focus on you.

Why bother posting that comment Evil if you didnt want to derail the thread .

I suppose if you are childish and strange enough to carry things from thread to thread then I have answered my own question.

The Counsellor is wrong telling you to try when your DH is clearly not interested in the marriage. Find another counsellor for closure, because this one is not acting in your best interests.

It's not balanced only expecting you to do things for your DH. A good counsellor doesn't behave that way.

Don't pander to your husband and loose yourself in the process.

And I echo that you should ignore posters with meaningless views.

'I have constantly been made to feel that the feelings Im feeling are not real.'

That sounds like classic gaslighting to me. You sound so sad, exhausted and lonely OP. What a dreadful situation for you to be in. You do not have to put up with this. It sounds like you are getting nothing positive from your marriage and haven't been for some time.

I agree with others that your counsellor sounds unhelpful at best, highly unprofessional at worst. Don't see her again. I would recommend finding another counsellor for you to see alone. You will likely need professional support to hold onto yourself while you get out of this marriage. It sounds like your life will be much calmer without your husband in it.

The couples counselling clearly isn't helping you at all, eg the counsellor seemingly has a "stay together" agenda, so end that and just leave the relationship! You can always seek counselling for yourself.

Ignore Les, OP. You don't sound self-indulgent, you just sound terribly, terribly sad.

At the risk of coming across a bit yoghurt-can-cure-endometriosis, I suspect your health might improve significantly when you're out of this situation. It must be awfully wearing to have made your life with someone who has such ridiculous expectations of you and clearly doesn't have your back.

I think I'm the first one to suggest this, but I reckon your husband has met someone else. That's usually the pattern when 'I want a divorce' comes out of the blue and the spouse sticks to that implacably. Even if that's not the case, it sounds like this marriage has run its course and isn't good for either of you any more, but I just wanted to prepare you for that eventuality.

Good luck, OP. Don't live any more of your precious life like this.

I could have saved everyone the agony my last 5 years of marriage caused if only I had given myself permission to leave him without first understanding why he acted as he did and whether he deserved better than what I have.

It is easier to frame this as a "will I be better off divorced?" question. I have found enormous joy in living alone, making choices that must please only me, etc. We have now been divorced since 1989 and STILL, the act of crossing my own threshold brings me happiness and peace.

Is there any answer for me as to what happened to my marriage, whether I saw things clearly, etc.? Nope, nope, nope. I never have figured that out.

So glad I gave up risking everything to try to find out.

evilstepmum that retort to Racoon has tickled me, as has their would be patronising response. Complete hypocrisy on MN whats new. Brilliant. We are all only human after all.

I have a dissenting view and I'm ok with that,many who have took a shot at me havent even read my posts properly, as it was on MN, so shall it always be.

Sorry OP if I didnt fit the brief of what you were looking for. I wish you well.

Just wondering how you are, Bella?

You should leave. Life is too short. He isn't a nice person and he doesn't have your back. Leave, enjoy your life again.

OP, I am sorry you have suffered so much and on top of that had your feelings invalidated by your husband AND counsellor. You are entitled to your feelings. You own them. You are entitled to be acknowledged and not dismissed. The counsellor is completely inappropriate in 1) telling you what you should do in regards to your relationship and 2) dismissing your feelings, particularly those arising from the stress of unmanaged illness.

Your husband is a narcissistic cunt. It is all about him. His wants come above your needs. He wants to be met at the door? What are you, a puppy?! Does he have no empathy for your illness? He should be coming straight in the door and to you and asking can he get you anything. That's what a loving partner does when the other is ill. They nurture and cherish them. Instead, he is gaslighting you, minimising your suffering, invalidating your most basic feelings and reactions and blaming you for your feelings! Classic abusive narcissistic behaviour. Your feelings are not wrong! They are warning you that something is very profoundly and fundamentally wrong with this man and relationship. Anyone who would leave you without a meal when you're that unwell is a cunt, pure and simple. Normal loving people don't treat their spouse this way. That is alarming and it is abusive to take that control when you are vulnerable. Not eating and not sleeping would do a number on anyone's mental and physical wellbeing.

Do not have kids with this man!!!

Ignore wes or les or whoever this uncaring fool is earlier in this thread. You need support right now, not the harsh judgements of strangers who don't know you or your illness.

Look up invalidation - the fact is you have no voice in this relationship and its time to end it for the sake of your mental and physical health. Pm if you need a friend to just talk to for day to day support. Hugs.

Ballarina, you sound an amazing inspirational woman. Honestly don't let your husband drag you down. Get things moving to get him out of your life and move forward with your other plans, as you have lots going for you.

Once he's gone, the weight of all this will be lifted from you.

If possible try not to dwell on individual things he does, just blank the, and keep your emotional energy for you. He doesn't matter any more and you owe him nothing.

All the best xx

i could have written a lot of you post op and its hard when you are first waking up and seeing the clear pattern of your relationship. When you see that it involves gaslighting, minimising, devaluing you and your opinion, your input never counting for much, misunderstanding after misunderstanding.

No responsibility ever being taken for their behaviour, blaming you for their behaviour, never seeing the wrong that others do to you but making sure you feel its your fault and on and on.

My only advice is trust yourself and value your own opinions which is so hard to do after your mind has been constantly worked upon. However that's the only way you will ever gain some clarity, or at least enough to make decisions that allow you to begin to move on.

Counsellors are never recommended in these situations as personalities like your husband are too manipulative.

The only way i'm breaking free is by doing a lot of reading on the internet around emotional abuse and narcissists, also the freedom course from woman's aid which is available online or in a group.

My husband did go on to other forms of abuse but everything you mentioned was ongoing over many years too and is so subtle at first that i couldn't see it and i did blame myself. In low moments i still do blame myself (but ive had 10 years of being conditioned to do so) but i'm getting stronger everyday an you will too op.

Goodluck Op, theres some good threads in relationship which may help you read through, the gray rock one is good, i came to mumsnet like you and i woke up and realised the truth and im still not totally out of the situation but im nearly there.

I think you're very hurt and vulnerable and given that you feel (and I agree) that your husband has contributed to this, then yes, without a real u-turn it would be very unhealthy to stay together.

I'm never sure if and when people gaslight intentionally. There is often such a mismatch in how people are feeling and when communication is very poor, this can happen.

I hope you keep seeing things in colour. Maybe you'd benefit from your own councillor.

It sounds like neither of you like one another much. Time to call it a day, really.

Without hearing the other side, it is hard to judge but some would call throwing things and swearing at your partner abusive behaviour. I think that is overly simplistic but it can't be helpful to either of you.

What do you mean 'undiagnosed' hypothyroidism and hashimotos. Have they now been diagnosed are are you hypochondriac/suffer from health anxiety? I am not minimising this as it must be awful and you also sound depressed.

I think you are not good from one another and I can see both sides of this. You need to separate and resolve your own issues (on both sides).

Find another counsellor, just for you - leave this marriage with a sense of closure and your head held high.

Dear All,

Apologies for disappearing. I wasn't in a very good place and could not handle more drama. A big heartfelt thank you to all who responded, your words of encouragement make a huge difference.

Hugh - I'm doing much better, some wobbly moments throughout each day but much better.

Music- Thank you for your kind offer, I will pm you in a bit.

Flirtgal - Thanks for the advice, its very hard to explain how it creeps up on you and engulfs you, your thoughts, emotions, personality. I wish you all the best in reaching your goal.

Larry - The undiagnosed hypothyroid explanation is as follows. I contracted chicken pox as an adult and since then haven't been quite 100%. The changes were so gradual and the symptoms so different, it was impossible to connect i.e repeated candida, fluid filled joints, sudden food intolerances, fatigue/lethargy, weight gain, hair falling out, skin dry and itching, unexplained skin allergic reactions etc. No one could figure out what the problem was. This was over a period of 7 years. I had multiple gastroscopy/colonscopy because I could not eat normal food without severe pain or bloating, I had 3 different emergency haemorrhagic ovarian cysts operated on some as large as 13cm.
I did so much research but no doctor would believe me and obviously stbexh didnt care enough to fight to find an answer. I finally asked a friend if she would go with me to see Dr Gordon Skinner in Birmingham which was a lifesaver. I started thyroxine immediately and started to feel better but not recovering quite yet. I was on 300mcg with tremors and shakes and other hyper symptoms along with my hypo symptoms. In that time I could not go back to Dr. Skinner as I didn't have the funds and then he died. So it was another 4 years before I found another doctor closer to where we were based at the time (still a 2hour plane ride away) who finally diagnosed the Hashimotos which means that my body does not break down the T4 hormone into the usuable T3 hormone. So i need to supplement with both T3 and T4. This together with the new doctor checking my vitamin D and B12 levels, Iron and calcium levels was the start of a my clawing my way back to feeling better. It obviously isnt an overnight solution its gradual. No sooner was I getting back on track that (finished my degree) stbexh decides we need to move to another remote location as he got a promotion with prospects to qualify further.
I struggle here because I can not get T3, its freezing for 9months of the year (currently -19C), I cant get B12 injections, no sun etc so it has been a setback but now that I have the knowledge I can beg and plead with people to bring me stuff I need in even though its slightly dodgy.

Before the summer, I started on my reproductive health bse this was the first time I could even think about it. So went through all fertility testing and got put on metformin and clomid etc and tracking ovulation. next step was the ovarian drilling and here we are at divorce.

sorry for the rushed message. I will try and answer more later. I need to go out very quickly.

Where will you go, OP? Do you have family/support in your home country?

Hello again!

It's only taken me a whole day to get back to the thread.

Fetchez: I've formulated a rough plan for my exit. Though a lot does depend on stbexh as in getting the paperwork sorted as I'm here on a spouse visa.
I spent the day today sorting out my CV and getting in touch with anyone and everyone I know in my network. The most obvious place for me to go to now would be the city I went to university in. Its not in my home country but it has the best employment options for me and I do have a small support system there.

I am planning on applying for as many jobs as I can and getting my CV out there on the various job boards plus LinkedIn etc. If I get no offers between now and when I leave here (aiming for that to be in the next 3 weeks), I will still head there for 3 months so that I'm on the ground to attend face-to-face interviews. I have a friend who will put me up so I'm not too worried about that though it is not a long term plan of course.

Stbexh is desperate for me to return to my home country (where I do have family support, but my parents are old and not in the best of health and the job market isn't exactly flourishing) so that I can go and sort out the divorce as that is where we got married. Frankly, that is not a priority for me at this point so he is welcome to go there himself and sort it out if he wants it done quickly.

Funny thing was he "bagsied" my family lawyer - someone he has never met or had any dealings with. Fortunately, I had already contacted the lawyer last week over a separate matter relating to my family and gave him a heads up about needing his help with the divorce too. Apparently he sees no reason why we can't share the lawyer as it's a straight forward no kids divorce.

I have reached out to a couple of friends to be on standby should I need emergency funds as I have no access to any of the savings accounts (though his mum does) but I have access to the local currency account but it only ever has food and bill money. I do have some jewellery that now holds no sentimental value so I will sell whatever I need to sell to raise cash should I need. He says he will be "fair" and that I should "trust him"... I'm happy to be surprised.

I have found my own counsellor with whom I will have a Skype session with at the end of the week. I feel much calmer though within myself, not every single second of the day but more and more each day for which I am grateful.

He still feels the need to get me to agree with his version of reality but I just don't engage any more. It's very liberating. He also continues to say some really cruel stuff to me trying to take away anything good I may have held on to about the past so stuff about my body or holidays we'd gone on or experiences we shared but I feel it just serves to make me see him more and more clearly and in a strange way it strengthens me.

To the poster who suggested my behaviour as being abusive, there may be some truth to it. I don't know what started what in this vicious cycle. When I look back at incidents (and the memories have come flooding back) it was never directed at him but as a way to relieve the pain/rage/hurt inside me. E.g I remember asking him to make me a hot water bottle as I was so cold and in pain which he did grudgingly (he was making himself a coffee anyway). Only he left some hot water around the screw top. Handed the bottle to me and when I put it on my feet I got burned by the hot water. I swore, I threw the bottle down (not at him) and all he said was "he didn't mean it, he didn't know he was supposed to tip the bottle and I shouldn't ask him to do stuff if I've got such high standards" then "sorry you got hurt".

Never taking any responsibility for his actions but also an effective way to get me to not ask him to do stuff for me and leave me doubting his intentions, confusion about why would he do that I must have misunderstood or overreacted and feeling guilty/bad over my reaction and then end up apologising to him.

It's crazy when I think about it now, how was I so blind? Why did I allow it to happen?

Despite waking up to the truth about the relationship I still feel hurt and discarded/rejected as if I wasn't good enough so I need to figure out how to deal with those feelings.

For now I'm trying to get through each day with as much productivity I can manage, anyone want to help me sort and pack?

That's my update, I hope it answers all the PP questions.

Thank you all once again for your support and understanding :)

Apparently he sees no reason why we can't share the lawyer as it's a straight forward no kids divorce

It is my understanding that any law firm of good repute would be reluctant to do this, as it could be a conflict of interest. I would just caution you to check that out, so you don't end up being the one to be rejected if they can only work with one, or the other, not both.

Tell STBX to sling his hook and get a different lawyer