CMS / maintenance / self employed etc advice

[writingsonthewall]

This may be long, bear with me. Any advice gratefully received.

I went through the CMS a couple of years ago as my ExH was amending his maintenance payments up and down monthly depending on his mood and I needed the stability of knowing how much I was going to get each month. He has always had his own business so I knew there was a risk he could massage his salary to suit but as at that stage he also had a salaried (PAYE) role I decided it was a risk worth taking for peace of mind.

In April of last year he left his salaried role to focus solely on his own business. At that stage I half expected the maintenance payments to change but never heard anything and continued to get what he had been paying (£380pm for 2 children). The annual review is in March so I knew that there was a potential the amount could go down then.

I received a letter from the CMS last week telling me that from 5 May 2016 his gross weekly income is now £58 per week and therefore from 5 May 2016 I should receive the princely sum of £7 per week in maintenance payments. Therefore by my calculations he has “overpaid” by around £350pcm for the last 9 months (total £3,150). Given his payment amount is now apparently £28pcm I am to receive nothing at all for over 2 years.

This is obviously a huge shock, not least because his salary is clearly not going to be £58 per week. I rely on the money I receive from him in order to pay for everything required for 2 young children. It doesn’t cover half even at £380 per month but that’s by the by.

I text my ExH (very acrimonious relationship), and asked him what was going on, he said that he had submitted some paperwork to them back in April (when he changed jobs), but they said nothing was done at that stage so he doesn’t know what’s going on. He said he called them up and they said that he shouldn’t pay anything until March when the annual review is due because he’s overpaid but they apparently wouldn’t tell him by how much he has overpaid.

I called them myself and asked if he had submitted paperwork to prove a change in salary in April, why hadn’t the payments been changed then? They couldn’t answer me. I also asked how on earth his salary could be £58 per week since May if he has been paying me £95 per week in that period. They couldn’t answer that either. Really not sure where to go from here, I can’t get any sense out of them.

I guess if he is lying about his salary to the HMRC then there is nothing CMS can do, his wife works with him so I guess he could just pay her all the salary and pay himself nothing to get out of paying CMS? Is there anything I can do about this? Is it perfectly legal and therefore not even tax evasion. I think most of his clients would pay via cheque or bank transfer so don’t think he can be getting too much cash in hand work. His businesses FB page shows evidence of a thriving business.

I’m so angry that he has potentially played the system like this – and is of course hiding behind the CMS (my fault for going to them in the first place obviously), and says he’s overpaid so clearly only fair to pay nothing now.

Any advice or is this yet another thing I have to suck up, and carry on smiling gaily while I pack them off to this no good bastard once a month for the weekend as he’s “too busy working” to have them any more than that, whilst I juggle a full time job and looking after them with all that entails. His pay must be about 20p per hour if he earns as little as he says while working the hours he says.

My ex is/ was self employed. About 10 yrs ago I applied for and was granted a variation. It was an extremely lengthy and stressful time that probably took 18 mths. It was calculated that I was owed £4000. That has never been collected and I was recently asked by the CMS if I wanted the debt transferred over to the new system!!!!!! The CSA did actually send the bailiffs around to ex's house when he wasn't signing on, the next day he went to clam jobseekers again. He knows how to play the system. I have just notification that he will be paying me £7 per week for two children.

Same old story here too. Suspect there are many many cases of these delightful men who know how to play the (hugely flawed) system.

Mine pays £7 a week for 3 children declaring an income of £3100 a year. HMRC did their annual review & his earnings were found to be £33000 declared (assume a lot more is cash in hand) and awarded me £500 a month. He is now ignoring their calls and letters so I suspect that nothing will ever come of this as they can't take it directly from him & any assets will be in the girlfriends name.
Meanwhile he plays the doting disney dad to his adoring public..... and I work my butt off to provide for the children & be a decent role model/human.

It's massively confusing. Husky - my understanding was that the CMS used the HMRC info, so goodness knows why they keep using other stuff. I suppose it's because of the time lag between when you file accounts and now, ie they've only got detail at the moment up to April 2016, and that is when my exH says he left his PAYE job, so in order to get what he earns now they kind of have to take his word for it? But then as someone else said further up, at some point they'll get the right numbers at some point (excluding the cash issue)?

Also cake - I thought if they didn't pay what they were supposed to (eg £500 in your case), they got arrested or something - is that wishful thinking?

The CMS certainly used info from HMRC to assess my case.
I'm not sure what recourse they take for non-payment...but here's hoping you are right Knowing he was arrested won't help me to finance the food or clothes the children need but it will make me feel better!

Can you make him have 50/50 with the kids ? If my ex ever tries this shit with me that's exactly my plan

The system seems so variable, honestly I've nothing but good things to say about CMS they've been brilliant with me and stood for no shit from my ex

the thing i don't get is if someone owed you money for ANYTHING else you could take them to court and they would at least get a CCJ(???? or something? which would be annoying for their credit rating etc and may make them pay up.

There just doesn't seem to be anything you can do if someone doesn't pay CM??

I wonder if that's ever been tried donner?

how can my partners ex apply to the CMS every month to get his pay looked at? He pays what is asked direct credit every month - every 30 days she contacts CMS they contact him he provides pay slips advises nothings changed they go back to her and say its all ok as it is - then she waits 30 days and does it again - how can this be allowed? its been going on 10 years!! obviously she has issues but honestly if this was in any other area it would be harassment, and with the highlight with mental health you can see how this type of behaviour can push people over the edge - surely an annual or bi-annual review should be enough?

Just making sure she gets what’s owed too many people especially men not paying right for their children

I know this is an old thread but it resonates with me.

Probably the most frustrating time I’ve ever had to go through.

www.change.org/p/the-government-change-the-way-child-maintenance-service-make-their-calculations

I started a petition (didn’t expect it to get very far) but would appreciate if anyone would sign it.

The system is so massively flawed!

I’ll sign it the whole system is a disgrace and you get controlling spiteful men like my ex getting away with providing for their children

Thank you rainbow. Much appreciated!

I just don’t understand why it is allowed. The conversation i had to the cms was practically comical.

Hmrc had given cms a figure, then the nrp contact cms to give them wage slips..... THAT HE PAYS HIMSELF.... and as they are more than 25% of a difference to what hmrc provided they have to take the wage slips. He’s also paying himself just the right amount to avoid any tax.

He was previously (in the same line of work) paying £300 pm. The cms advised it was to be £350 but I stupidly agreed less. Now he pays £34 pm because of what he pays himself. It’s barbaric

Just signed it.

Thank you musti. Much appreciated.

It’s appalling that so many of us are affected by this

It’s an absolute disgrace, my eldest nearly 16 and hardly had anything from her dad since she was little , my youngests dad knew my struggles with csa/cma over the years yet he has done exactly the same his child yet goes on to have more kids and provide for new partners child while leaving me to struggle

I think there are two points. 1. That there are nrp’a out there willing to behave so appalling towards their own children 2. That the cms STILL have no power to do ANYTHING.

I have deep hatred for the nrp but try and direct it towards the government body who let these despicable people get away with it.

There are severe penalties when you swindle the system and the government comes out worse for it, so why not when it is affecting children

Something needs to be done about , it’s so wrong

I wrote to the minister in charge of this, here's his reply.

Dear *

Thank you for your email of 5 November to the Minister for Family Support, Housing
and Child Maintenance. Government Ministers receive a large volume of
correspondence and they are unable to reply personally on every occasion. I have
been asked to respond and I apologise for the delay that has occurred.
It is a key principle that unpaid child maintenance should be paid immediately.
Where this is not possible the Child Maintenance Service aims to recover arrears
within a maximum period of two years. If no payment is agreed then enforcement
action can be sought depending on the circumstances of the case.
The Service has a range of enforcement powers it can use to make parents comply
with their responsibilities. These powers include deducting on-going maintenance
and arrears directly from bank accounts; sharing information about arrears with
credit reference agencies; instructing enforcement agents to collect arrears or take
control of goods; forcing the sale of property; commitment to prison and
disqualification from driving.
As part of the Compliance and Arrears Strategy, new powers recently passed
through Parliament will enable the Service to deduct child maintenance directly
from a wider range of accounts, including joint and business accounts, and enable
us to target complex earners via a calculation of notional income based on assets.
It also now has powers to disqualify non-compliant parents from holding a UK
passport, which it believes will act as a strong deterrent. This power will become
law on 20 December 2018.
Enforcement charges are also applied to paying parents when enforcement action
is taken. The charges are intended to encourage parents to comply with their
commitments, as well as to off-set the cost to the Department taking the
enforcement action. Enforcement action can be a lengthy process and, whilst the
Service will use all the means at their disposal to try and collect what is owed, you
will appreciate that where parents actively seek to avoid their financial
responsibilities towards their children, it is inherently more difficult to achieve this.
It can be difficult to get a small minority of parents with complex incomes to comply
with their responsibilities to their children. This Department’s new compliance and
arrears strategy includes proposed changes to make sure more parents meet their
obligations to pay for their children, and targets known loopholes. This is in addition
to working more closely with HM Revenue and Customs and dedicating more
resources to the Child Maintenance Service’s specialist Financial Investigation Unit.
However, the Service cannot force paying parents to remain in work or in a
particular employment. There are some paying parents who are so determined to
avoid their responsibility pay for their children that they are willing to continually
move from job to job. These are difficult cases for the Service to pursue. It will
however use every power at its disposal to persuade those who use this tactic to
pay for their children.
Yours sincerely
Robert Watling
Head of the Ministerial Correspondence Team

In short, we can't do jack.

I had this with my ex.

He played the system and thinks he has "won"
He has never payed a penny child support in 15 years because of his self employed salary.

He also buggered off and has not seen or been in any contact with his children in 12 years. His own family disowned him due to seperate disgraceful behaviour and have not seen him for 8 years either.

DD changed her surname at 16 and never wants to lay eyes on him again. She has recently made contact with cousins which is lovely as she has some tangible ties with the paternal side of her family.

DS can't remember his father but is not in the least bit bothered about ever meeting him. I hope when he wants to that he is also able to build a relationship with aunts and cousins.

Both DC's are funny, loving, bright young individuals that have achieved fantastic things due to their own determination and tenacity. They make me and their step father proud everyday.

My ex has missed out on all of this through his own choice. He will never know how wonderful his children are. There was never a game to be won or lost and it is despicable for any non resident parent to have that twisted logic when it comes to paying child maintenance.

My stbxh is self employed. He claimed he earnt under 11,000 per year, i disputed this.

There is a form you can fill out asking them to check for additional income the form is a "variation of earnings form" . They dont appear to routinely know about self employed people, its luck of the draw if you get through to someone who knows about it.

My stbxh pays himself diverdents, , with the variation form CM will do an additional check (which they probably havnt done yet) with HMRC and then factor in his diverdents on top of his wage, then its recalculated and back dated!! Like someone else said the process is long and stressful but i got there and my stbxh now pays the correct about which counts the backdated amount. I know hes hidden money and still doesnt give much per month, but its enough
Also i was told that CM can get a court order and get the money that way, a long drawn out process.

Yeah a variation order is something a lot of people don’t know about and I would urge people to venture down that route if they haven’t already done so.

The problem there is that the ltd company only has to declare their dividends at a certain time of year, and some companies don’t declare them for a very long time. therefore if the variation is made at a time the ltd company hasn’t Declared its dividends it doesn’t change the amount.

I started my petition because something does truly need to change. If the resident parent (usually mother) was to be neglectful towards their child in anyway - either emotionally, physically or financially she would be reprimanded. Severely. Why is it differently for the nrp?!