Toxic mother - next steps?

[llamainayurt]

First, some background: I have a difficult relationship with my mother, who I strongly suspect has borderline personality disorder (ticks most of the boxes). I finally sought help for my own depression at the end of last year. I'm now seeing a therapist, and finding it really helpful to talk about the relationship with my mother, and how I handle her meltdowns / tantrums. I went no contact for 6 months about 10 years ago after a particularly explosive meltdown (Mum eventually got back in touch with me). For the past couple of years I've been attempting low contact - superficial skype conversation every 2-3 weeks (with occasional longer gaps after the inevitable tantrums).

I constantly feel like I'm walking on eggshells, just waiting for the next inevitable meltdown / nastiness (although I can never predict what will cause this). We had a Skype conversation last week where she was horrible to my 6yo son (had a real go at him for being "rude" essentially because he wasn't being as chatty as she wanted - DS was predictably confused). I shut down the conversation and said we would call back when she felt better. In most of our Skype conversations she will end up telling the kids off at some point (all completely counter-productive when it comes to building a relationship with her only GC).

We're travelling back to the UK in the summer (first visit in 18 months) and I had planned to travel to my parents' part of the country, rent a cottage nearby and see them for lunches / days out (to make sure we have somewhere to escape to when the inevitable breakdown happens). But now I'm not sure that even this will work, given my Mum can't even get 5 minutes through a Skype call without having a go at the kids. And ultimately I want to protect them from all this.

My therapist has said my Mum (now 70) is unlikely to change. I've considered going no contact again, but worried this won't necessarily help (not least because of fear of the guilt I will feel if she dies without us speaking again). I'm really not sure what to do next. Ignore and call again in a couple of weeks, pretending, as usual, that nothing's happened and having an inane conversation? Or a carefully worded email to say that she upset my son during our last call, that we can't speak if she does this, but we're here if she decides that she wants to call us and have a proper conversation. Or something else???

If you've got this far, thanks for reading. Any advice from those who are going through / have been through something similar much appreciated. I have dipped in and out of the stately homes thread (which gave me the impetus to seek help), but not posted on this before.

ontherise - hearing that you and others have found life happier and easier since setting boundaries / going no contact has given me encouragement to do what I need to do. I don't want this fear of giving offence / fear of my Mum's reaction to what I say or don't say to keep on dominating my life. Time to stop.

LostSoul - really glad this thread is helping you too. It's hard working this through alone - just wish I'd come onto Mumsnet to ask for advice earlier.

Right - decided that I need to have a last (and first?) attempt at setting boundaries. I've cut short calls before when my Mum starts acting up, but apart from one dreadful, horrible confrontation about 10 years ago (when we didn't speak for 6 months after), I haven't directly called her on her behaviour or said what I cannot accept.

I'm really struggling with drafting this email. Not least because the last call we had wasn't a major blow-out argument, but just part of the continuing drip, drip of critical, passive-aggressive behaviour.

I don't want to get into everything my Mum has ever said or done and the impact it has had on me (and is now starting to have on the kids). But just dealing with her behaviour in our last call doesn't seem to capture it.

Thinking of saying something along the lines of: "Our last call obviously didn't go well, and I've found your behaviour in calls over the past few months increasingly difficult to deal with. I am now concerned that this is impacting not just on me but also on the children. I cannot accept behaviour which is hostile, either to them or to me."

Then what?! Looking back over past behaviour I don't want to accept her being aggressive, explosive, moody, sullen, critical, unpredictable or just plain horrible. I don't want to feel like I'm constantly walking on eggshells around her, but how on earth do I get this across in a way which isn't completely pointless / counter-productive? And how do I finish?

Not very practised in boundary setting (as you will be able to tell!) so appreciate any advice from those who are better at this than I am.

How much contact do you actually want to have with this woman?

Decide what you want, then do it once a month phone call perhaps?

I guess the key things you need here if you want to go forward positively are:

Let's start with a clean slate
We need not to bring old baggage or persue personal agendas, in our ongoing relationship, and by this I mean, no more criticisms or controlling type behaviours. We welcome your support and affection but not your dissapproval....
Nope sorry..this is like putting a sticking plaster on a dam . It won't work and will actually just engender a narcissistic explosion of rage.
Boundries are worked one at a time, and sadly a lot like dog training. Good behaviour, reward = contact. Bad behaviour , state problem and withdraw.
The email is actually confrontation, not boundary setting, although It may not feel like that. This is why there is so much advice about " write it, but don't send it"
Also boundary setting only works on people who are self aware and capable of, and motivated to, change. Does that sound like your mother?

Also boundary setting only works on people who are self aware and capable of, and motivated to, change.

Totally. This is the exact problem I ran into time and again during the period I was trying renegotiate my relationship with my mother. It's very difficult to establish effective boundaries with someone with Borderline Personality Disorder, by the fundamental nature of that illness.

BPD is characterised by a absolute lack of boundaries in interactions with others. Children of BPD parents aren't allowed to have boundaries of their own, they are treated merely as an extension of their parents.

And moreover I was afraid of my mother. She'd scared me - and at times terrorised me with her rages - from literally my earliest memories. How much harder to set boundaries effectively when you've that sort of history in the background?

Every single day I am grateful I am not in contact with her, and I am now healing in a meaningful sense for the first time. Even low contact was destroying my peace - in a way it would have been more comfortable to have no boundaries with my mother than some, because in the most basic level she sees boundaries as something to be overcome, not accepted and lived by.

Yurt

Your mother will not be able to accept any boundary you care to set her. Nothing has changed here really; your mother has not changed and you are still playing out the roles she assigned to you. You still seek her approval. It will be the same this time around as well; you now need to completely detach and stop your roles in her game. Self preservation is necessary.

Low contact as well has not worked; she simply cannot behave decently but plays by her own rules even in a Skype call. You would not have tolerated any of this from a friend, your mother is no different.

You fear how you will feel when she dies so that is why you have not maintained a no contact position. You are still very much mired in FOG. She however, does not feel any guilt or remorse for how she has treated you over the years. She feels she has done nothing wrong here with regards to you. She is and will not be the mother you want her to be. You will ultimately have to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

Do not contact her further in any form. ANY further communication you send no matter how carefully or nicely worded will be seized upon by her and used against you to tear you to shreds. Her rage will really hold no bounds here. She will see your words as an attack on her and toxic people really do like nothing more than a) a flight and b) the last word. Your e-mail will give her both.

As 665 says, "The email is actually confrontation, not boundary setting, although It may not feel like that. This is why there is so much advice about " write it, but don't send it. Also boundary setting only works on people who are self aware and capable of, and motivated to, change. Does that sound like your mother?"

It is not your fault your mother is like this; you did not make her that way. Her own family of origin did that lot of damage to her. What if anything do you know about her own childhood, that often gives clues.

The best thing to do re your mother is to be in a no contact position with her and maintain that. She is still awful to you and in turn now your child as well. Protect yourselves. Maintain and install boundaries for your own self and your child.

If you have not already read "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward I would suggest you do so.

I feel like bursting in to tears reading this . Wish I was NC with my mother , she lives close and is moving 2 mins down the road . She has bullied me my whole life and is only false now because I have a partner (she likes men ) .
My DD is 9 and pretty much knows Grandma is a horrible bully although she has a relationship with her . She seems to love her grandkids but I'm pretty sure she doesn't love me (don't know about my sisters) and I don't feel any bond with her what so ever . She is pretty evil , controlling , manipulative and lies all the time . Messed up thing is I'm sure DP believes her sometimes . She encourages DP when we fall out and basically justifies anything shitty he does . He has been trying to quit smoking so naturally she is shoving cigarettes down his neck and gloating about it .
As a late teen / early twenties I basically begged for her to love me with money / gifts etc then having my daughter made me look at it with a complete inability to understand how she could treat me that way . Being pregnant (I am now with DC2) makes it a million times worse for me .
I've had counselling and therapy over the years but because she is still in my life nothing can make me let go of it as she is still the same . She will never ever say sorry for anything she does in a million years.
Currently blocked her on my phone for something she did / said last night .

MotherofA I just want to give you a massive hug. Can't you think about cutting or severely limiting contact with her? She is bringing you and your family only negativity and hurt. I know she's moving closer (mine did that, too. Controlling.) but it can still be done. If you get to a place where you just absolutely refuse to engage with someone there is a lot of freedom to be gained there. She would soon get the picture if she saw you were resolute.

Any chance you can take a leaf out of OnTheRise's book and insist on emails instead of Skype or phone calls?

That way you can decide what (if anything) to respond to and what (if anything) to read out to your kids.

Humanfemale yes I do need to and should do that. As pathetic as it sounds it's like she has some power over me !
She's having a minor op on her foot (always having something done or something wrong with her ) and said it conveniently fits in with when I have the baby ?! I've never socialised with her and had mother daughter time before so why on earth does she assume she's going to be hanging around me then ? Also she smokes and doesn't care if children are near etc which has always infuriated me . Just having a bad time and a pregnancy definitely stirs up the issues with my mother massively . Thank you for the hug 🤗

Thank you to everyone who replied to my last post. I'm not in a UK timezone, so just catching up now!

Shayelle - how much contact do I want? If we were able to keep things relatively superficial every time, then once every 3 weeks or so would be OK. But even then, the uncertainty about whether the next call will mean aggression, criticism, sulking etc means I'm losing the will to keep this up. Could I keep going with a 3 weekly / monthly cycle of calls which I simply shut down as soon as she starts acting up? I'm not really sure what's in that for me - feels like I would be keeping this up to stop her from feeling abandoned rather than doing what's right for me and my DC.

665 - I know my possible wording for a draft email sounded like a confrontation - I'm really bad at doing this (my natural tendency is to say nothing and act like nothing's happened, but trying to break this now). Your wording sounded a lot better, but I agree even this is likely to lead to an explosion of rage. My Mum is anything but self aware and motivated to change.

humanfemale - what you say really resonates. The thought of healing myself is very powerful for me right now.

Attila - you're absolutely right that I still feel fear, obligation and guilt; this thread has been really helpful is letting me see that more clearly. I know that she will never feel that she has done anything wrong. I find the idea of cutting contact now, without saying anything more, all the more difficult because we didn't have an all-out explosive blowout (we would have done had I continued the call) . I would, perversely, almost find it easier if there was some sort of final eruption, which would make it obvious why I was going NC.

My Mum has certainly hinted at a damaged childhood, but never opened up on this.

I've got Toxic Parents on my list to read - have skim read Surviving a BPD Parent this week, and read Daughters of BPD Mothers before. All helpful, but so much to digest whilst still dealing with the issues in real-time.

MotherofA - adding a to human female's hug. There's some really great advice on this thread. And one of the most useful things for me has been validating the sense that the relationship I have with my Mum is in no way normal (and yours isn't either). Interesting to her about your Mum's continual ailments - mine is identical. Hoping that you can find the strength of limit or go no contact - I'm mustering mine.

bingolittle - good idea about possibly going to email only contact. I will think about that. I suspect she would react badly to this (but then that would at least underline for me that no contact was the only option).

Yurt- Good morning ladies, I've never posted on a forum before but have always lurked, I felt compelled to write to you Yurt.

I am you! I have a hard relationship with my mother and sought therapy in December 2016 to help me deal with this. Firstly congratulate yourself in recognising her behaviour and the damage it's caused you, and then for taking steps to take back your life, so to speak. My therapist has advised me that people with personality disorders live by their own viewpoint which is unfortunately not realistic, and parents with disorders can put us into roles in their own world, as we are children and are dependent on them. We therefore grow up with this as the 'norm' and it is heartbreaking as we grow and realise this isn't actually 'normal'.

My mother I'm sure has BPD due to many many incidences over the years and her general behaviours/opinions! She has created her this viewpoint which for her is normal, yet is extremely tough for the rest of us who realise it isn't and who are forced to fit into her reality in the role she depicts. At the same time she made it impossible for me to fit into this role as nothing was ever good enough and I was always wrong no matter what. I felt helpless for years and strived to achieve her satisfaction and please her which never happened.
She will always be surrounded by her own viewpoint, which I now understand is the reason why my efforts to please her would never succeed. It's only since I moved out last year that I fully realised the extent of her abuse/behaviour and that I was never going to win, it's this along with therapy that have helped me to get to a place where I'm no longer existing to please her.

Ive also come to realise that my upbringing wasn't full of the typical love displayed in a mother-daughter relationship because my mother was incapable of being this way, but yet she believes she's been the perfect mother (skewed viewpoint).

It's taken time, and a lot of patience and self kindness to myself, to allow myself to accept the fact that I will never have the relationship I want with her, and have effectively worked for for years. I say 'worked for' as I sacrificed my own happiness to placate her and try to please her in any way possible. Therapy has awakened me to the fact I did this, and has helped me to stop doing it. It has been hard but also extremely satisfying that I've taken control of my life and am no longer existing to please my mother in the role she set for me. If you get a chance search on the internet 'locus of control' which relates to where you find your own happiness. My therapy has made me realise I base my own happiness on how happy I can make other people, namely my mother, and that this stems from not feeling good enough which was imbedded in my by my mother as a child. I am now focusing on my life, I do not have children (yet) but have a wonderful partner I want children with and our life together now comes first, as he brings me true happiness and love, which I have never experienced from her.

Yet, even though therapy has helped me immensely and I am aware of my mothers behaviour and the detrimental impact it has on me, I am finding it hard to cut her off completely and one big reason is guilt. So I understand you completely. I just think about her dying and how I'd feel knowing I cut her off, and whether I'd tried hard enough. It's a really tough place to be!!!

What I've done for the moment is to be in control of our relationship, as much as I can be that is! If she is rude, I walk away or put the phone down. I do not contact her unless she contacts me and then I gauge her mood. It is a relief to not be chasing her and walking on egg shells. I control the contact i have with her but this is entirely dependent on her mood as I have no control over her mood/behaviour. If she doesn't contact me in a nice way, I won't speak to her. It may seem like she still is impacting/controlling me, but she isn't as I now don't pander to her or worry what I'm doing is wrong and that i need to fix it. For now, this is the way I manage having her in my life whilst limiting the harm she causes me.

Due to this, I feel it may be possible to have her in my life moving forward with limited contact, but I also feel that if she were to get worse, i.e. Revert to emotional abuse, horrible nastiness etc, I will shut it down.

I can tell from your posts and you wanting to send her a letter, that you may not be there yet. I don't mean this in a belittling way at all so sorry if it comes across like that, but I understand it's a journey and only you will know when you're there, so don't force yourself to do something when you're not ready.

For the time being work on making your relationship work FOR YOU and do not accept anything less than that, but don't tell her what you're doing, she doesn't need to know, and quite frankly it wouldn't make a difference to her anyway! Toxic people/ personality disorder tend to be highly narcissistic and anything you say can be used against you and thrown back in your face. Sending her a letter I imagine may do just this and you don't want to give her that opportunity.

Be kind to yourself. Focus on your DC and I'm sure with therapy and time you'll be ok. I once lived to please my mum, and now know that will never be possible, and that's ok as I manage it in the only way I can.

Feel free to pm if you need to talk. It's tough but you'll be ok. Big hugs xxx

Thank you so much llama I hope one day I cut the ties and get rid for good . It's bizarre as many have spoken of the sense of relief when their Mother has passed and I've always imagined feeling like this , a sense of relief and a finally that hold being gone . My mum is young though and despite the thousands of ailments she has had I think I could have decades more of being treated this way if I continue to allow it .

Bulldog - thanks for delurking! I'm starting to realise too that there is no way I can "win" - if I maintain contact, I'm always going to be anticipating the next explosion / sulk / nasty criticism, and that is not good for me.

Getting help for my own depression as a result of all this was a massive step for me - I know more than anything that I never want to go back to the place I was in just a couple of months ago, and for that to happen something has to change in the relationship I have with my Mum. I think I realise now, like you, that I will never have the relationship I want with my Mum. The fear, the guilt etc has such a ridiculously powerful hold, but I know that I need to overcome this if I'm going to make a better life for me and my kids.

I've just started in the last couple of months putting the phone down on her when she's rude. But I'm always the one to call back (albeit in a few weeks time) - and she inevitably then complains that I haven't called in ages, as if I'm the only one with the ability to pick up the phone. I obviously need, at the very least, to stop doing this.

The point about making the relationship work for me, but without letting her know what I'm doing, is a good one. Although I wonder whether I would ever be able to get to a place of complete detachment, where I'm not worrying about the next call / anticipating what she will say next. In that respect, the idea of going NC completely is quite attractive - the sense of relief that many others have spoken of is something I would like to feel .

I won't send the letter / email to my Mum (thanks for all the advice on this in the thread). I'm still a bit stuck on what to do next. If I simply don't call, it will probably take my Mum a number of months to take the initiative to call me. And when she does she will likely be crying and feeling very sorry for herself. If I wanted to go completely NC, how would I go about that? I feel like I would want at least to let her know that this was happening. Or if I decided to just continue an email relationship (rather than a phone relationship) for now, presumably I should let her know that I'm doing this?

Navigating all this is really difficult for my low self-esteem / confrontation-hating self, so I'm incredibly grateful for all the advice on here.

MotherofA - it sounds like you know you don't want this to last for decades more. I really hope that you feel able to start taking steps to detach yourself. Like Bulldog says, it's a journey. I felt like I took a step in the right direction by being assertive enough to put the phone down on my Mum (and now feel able to do this again) - may not sound like much to others, but it's made "the fear" that little bit less powerful, and helped shift my own confidence up a notch. But so helpful here to hear from others who've taken the next steps and come out the other end feeling stronger.

MotherofA - I can also relate to you when you said you bought your mothers love with money and gifts, I did the same. It is hard accepting that our mothers can treat us this way, but it is their issue, not ours, please remember that and don't beat yourself up (if you are). You sound like a lovely, caring mother to your DC and soon to be DC2 and if you need to look for positives out of this, it could be that you will never allow yourself to have the relationship with your children that you have with your own mother.

This situation is so hard because we have to accept that a natural relationship isn't what it should be. Mothers and daughters are 'meant' to be close, it isn't always the way though and you're entitled to feel however you feel, it's really hard! Be strong and big hugs and focus on your DC2's arrival, that's something lovely for you. It took me years (I estimate 20!) to finally feel a bit stronger and not let her walk all over me, I'm not fully there, but I no longer let her bully me.

It is a shame that your DP sometimes believes her, can you talk to him? Would therapy help again? Therapy can help us at different stages in our lives. What may not have worked 5 years ago, may work now. Does she have a key to your home, can you get this back? Will either of you be moving house any time soon?

I know you said you wish you could be NC, but to help in the meantime whilst you make this decision I have some tips haha, I started to take control back in little ways when she did something that would make me feel guilty or wrong, I would analyse it before rushing to her to make HER feel better. I spent years trying to please her and of course I never did, but it was only when I stopped that I felt empowered and recognised the hurt she'd put me through and the manipulation. She never said it, and I never told her that I was no longer pandering to her, but it definitely makes a difference and soon you stop pandering completely and when she tries to cause harm, because you are blocking it and controlling how you feel/act it hurts less. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's basically about taking control of your feelings and actions because unfortunately you will never be able to control what she says or does, you cant change her, you just have to learn how to manage her to suit you, if you are going to keep her in your life.

If you are struggling to initially start this process, if/when she calls don't answer, if she knocks on your door you are already going somewhere and don't have time to talk, if she is asking you to do something you are busy, these things help to start the process and make us feel stronger. I know you said she's a good grandmother and loves your children, this is hard, I don't know what to advise here, but hopefully you can resolve it to suit you and your DC.

I'm sorry if you are already taking control and are past this stage, I just wish somebody had advised me of this years ago when I needed it. I knew for years the truth about her, and tried desperately to build a relationship with her, that I was never going to have and I've only recently been able to accept that. xxx

Yurt - I understand, as well as accepting that I don't have the relationship with my mother that I want, I have also had to accept that to keep her in my life there will always be an element of anticipation over her next mood/explosion. For now, I am in contact with her and I deal with the moods etc..because for now I still want her in my life. If I ever choose to go NC then obviously this will dissipate but will probably be replaced with some sort of guilt.. I can't win haha. (I have to laugh... what else can you do!)
I guess, I realise that this relationship will always have some form of anguish attached to it. My therapist explained to me that I can be a 'romantic' (which I was horrified about haha!) and because of that I find it harder to accept when things aren't what they 'should be', but he bluntly said that life isn't like that, it's hard and doesn't always go as we planned or hoped for, and that this is the hand I've been dealt and I've got to get on with it. It helped me to hear that, as much as I don't like it! Also, everyone you speak to has something unfavourable in their life, be it illness, losing a job etc.. and as much as this doesn't help our pain or situation, we aren't alone and no one's life is perfect.

Years ago, when things were really bad (I was still living with her at the time) I told her that I was not going to speak to her unless she was pleasant as I did not want the drama in my life anymore and that she could approach me when and if she wants to talk. She didn't like this, but I did not listen to what she had to say and was quite firm about it. And I didn't speak to her, I followed through on it and showed her I meant it. She did speak to me eventually, completely ignoring what I'd said but it was the first step in making her realise that I wont tolerate drama. To be honest, it hasn't worked fully and she still explodes/gets nasty but I now just walk away, and I believe she expects me to walk away. I don't rush to call her and I'm not nervous about her next mood as I know now that this is her and she wont change. All I can do is manage it to suit me.

I toyed with going NC, but I have a younger brother and sister and pet bulldog who still live with her and I'd be cutting them out if I cut her out, as she would manipulate the situation, so therefore I still speak to her. It's incredibly tough to go NC and I would be hesitant in telling her you are going to do this, unless you mean it as if you are not able to follow through with it, she 'wins' and can use it against you.

It seems your mother still has control over you as she knows you will eventually call and then she manipulates you with the tears, the first thing you need to do is break this pattern if you go NC or not. You could always continue a relationship via email to put some distance there, but it sounds to me like she's gotten you into a place where she knows she can manipulate you and until this is broken and she knows it wont work anymore, she will continue to do it. You could try and inform her that you wont tolerate the manipulation and when she wants to speak to you she can contact you? But be prepared for her not to contact you (i think it was you who said you'd had 6 months no contact previously). This way you're keeping the relationship open, but putting it back onto her.

If you want to go NC on the otherhand, you can always tell her that you are doing this and why and be prepared for her not to contact you. But if time goes on and you feel you wish to speak to her again, this doesn't mean you are 'weak', it just shows you're a normal, caring human being and a trier. Your mother may not see it this way, but try to worry about what she thinks, and don't be too hard on yourself. NC is very very hard. Do you have siblings?

Whatever you decide and do, try and remember, if she doesn't care enough to call you, why are you spending your time worrying about not calling her?

Whatever you decide, decide for you and if you can't stick to it don't beat yourself up as it's a hard situation. If you can, then I hope she responds favourably. You'll know when enough is enough, maybe you have a few more attempts in you before you get to this stage haha!

Yurt

This is a good piece on no contact and it also talks about FOG:-

outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/no-contact

I think your mother will still try and manipulate you via any communication and particularly if you respond to any e-mail or phone call.

She is not the mother you want her to be because she is not built that way. It is also not your fault your mother is the ways she is; you did not do that to her. Her own family of origin did that.