Friends who don't yet have children

[TeeCee]

My 2 best friends don't yet have children.

I've got a 5 yr old DD with special needs, a 14 month old and am pregnant with no3.

Sometimes I find it really hard that they just don't get where I am coming from.

Most of the time my oldest and closest friend is supportive and great but just recently I've really felt like she's keeping that part of my life at arms length.

Maybe it's just my hormones???

I spoke to her just now and she was telling me about booking to go away to South of France etc. I said how lovely and talked to her about it and then said that last night I ws saying to D that I'd really like to take my 2 girls away before baby no3 comes along so that DD2 gets at least one hoilday where she was the baby and her and her big sister had at least one hoilday where it was just the 2 of them. She just sort of said 'well they won't remember it and you're going to enjoy holidays with your kids later in life anyway'. I said yeah but it would just be nice to have a holiday when it was just the 2 of them and she sort of humphed! So I said 'you don't get it no?' and she said 'no', so I said 'hmmm, I don't think you really get it in general at the moment' and she said 'I'm not supposed to I don't have kids'. I said 'no i no, oh look don't worry about it, I'll see you later', and I sort of just hung up. Diodn't handle that very well. Silly thing to do and I feel all sad but I also feel frustrated and a bit fed up and sad and lonely and .....

Oh, it's silly, and I know there will be things she doesn't get but I just feel she's bored of me being a mum and isn't trying to understand.

I booked in to have some tests at the hospital yesterday and felt a little subdued about it and still do, and will continue to feel so. I told her and she just said 'oh, I don't know what to say' whereas usually I feel she would be more supportive.

When I chat to her on the phone and DD2 is trying to climb onto the table and I say 'sorry hang on a sec' I sense her being impatient that the flow of her chat is being interrupted.

I just feel a bit of a lonely mum and a bit sad and a bit not understood.

Don't know what I'm saying or what I want to hear back or anything. Just venting I suppose.

I met my best friend when I was 15.
She was 21 with 2 kids.
I really really didnt get it until I had my own at the age of 30.
I have since given her a massive apology.
Of course she is now laughing as her kids are grown up and she can sit and tell my 'I told you so'
It will all work out in the end!

before i had ds1, I used to feel very miffed when my friend would suddenly cut a converstaion short with "Shit, gotta go!" or punctuate it with cries of "No, darling, not in your mouth!"

That was because, like many childless people, I was completely self centred

She's being a bit like that. When she has had her first baby, you will go back to being great friends again.

my oldest friend has just have her first. my 2 are 5 and 2.5. i've felt v distant from her since i had dd1. esp since she was TCC for ages, so felt awkard talking babies. it's so hard when there's less common ground than there used to be, isnt it?

i have another friend who's hit 40 and will never have children cos her dp has refused. she is def v sad about this. feel awkward talkng about the girls with her too

ps i went on my hen weekend- 4 nights in new york, with 7 friends, 2 of which had children. i never thought for a second that it might be hard for them to leave their LOs

I had a bit of a spat with a close friend a few years ago which ended up with her saying something like "you don't understand what it's like to have a child" - I wanted to punch her in her smug, self-righteous face .

I also used to hate those Persil adverts that had a voiceover saying "you don't have kids do you..."

The thing is, I'd have loved to have kids but we weren't in a place where we could (not even fertility problems, just financial, practical, relationship problems). And I didn't feel I could have that conversation with her because then she'd give me the "oh if you wait until everything's perfect..." line (like my mum ) and anyway, I didn't want to have the conversation with anyone except my other 30-something childless mates doing that deafening biological click thing...

Anyway, TeeCee - congratulations! And this long ramble is nothing to do with your situation anyway.

I guess I just wanted to say, as someone who was childless not very long ago at all, that sometimes maybe when we have kids we also forget what it was like before and also "don't understand"...

Mind you, I've found my child-free friends very understanding so far - I dare say they'll get fed up with the cute baby & distracted mother soon though .

I'm gonna attempt to be brave and ask when did it become such a crime to not have children? TC I'm sorry your maybe feeling a little bit like your friend doesn't get you anymore, but it also sounds to me like your perhaps not attempting to get her either, if that makes sense. The same goes for some of the other responses on here regarding friendships with people who don't have children. It's perfectly acceptable to feel put out by the fact that you feel your childless friends just don't understand, but it also seems a little bit harsh to expect them to. Why would they understand?

If the shoe is on the other foot for a brief moment, picture how all those friends out there feel about their friends who are popping out babies. They probably worry that their pals are gonna turn into child obsessed people who talk about nothing except their kids and breast feeding etc. And guess what, a lot of them do. But this isn't going to be much fun for the childless people to have to listen to, is it?

I think I read a post on here saying that most people who don't have kids are self centred. Since when did not having children make anyone self centred? I don't have children yet, does that mean I'm a self centred person? My first baby is due at the end of may and I will do my hardest to try and keep my friendships. But I'm well aware they may change, but I'm also determined to make sure I don't alienate myself or my friends for that matter just because a baby is now in the picture. It'll probably mean that the friendships require more attention as I'll have this huge new responsibility and my childless friends wont understand, but I'm not expecting them to. I would like to think that I'll be able to ring these friends and talk about things other than babies so that I don't completely detatch myself from my old life. And I don't want them to think that just because I have a child, that that is all my life involves. There will always be more to me than talk of nappies and mothercare, and I'd like to think that my friends are about for when I wanna talk about other stuff.

Lwatkins, without wishing to sound horribly patronising, can you post again in June?

Think that no matter how good your friendship or how long you've been friends, having babies changes your friendship beyond all recognition.

My childless friends arrange to meet up - so I move heavena dn earth to get chidlcare - only to say " can we make it tomorrow instead"?

They come to stay and get up at 11 saying that they are tired (ffs I'll show them tired)

They take the piss if i can't stay late on a night out - to the point of leaving half way through dinner in a restaurant cos they'd been so fashionably late my babysitter had clocked off

They say " it would be nice to see you without kids"
Oh ok shall i put them in this cupboard for a bit then?

Whereas the bond you have with mummy friends is that unspoken understanding of how hard it is to do the simplest thing ( liek leave the house),.

Think you have to move the childless friends down a notch and don't expect too much from them anymore.

No I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching it's just I don't see why it has to be this kind of one or the other type thing. I'm well aware it's gonna be hard and will put a huge strain on my friendships but I just meant to say that it's gotta be just as equally hard for people who don't have chldren to have a friendship with someone who does IYKWIM. Maybe I'm not be as clear as I'm trying to be in my head, I know what I mean

adn lwatkins - print off that post
put it in an envelope.

open it when your dc is about 7 months

and then make sure you're near a loo cos you'll piss yourslef laughing and your pelvic floors won';t cope

I do know what you mean, LW.

But (and this is where I really am not patronising you, I promise) it's very hard to imagine how you'll feel about your baby and your childless friends before your baby's born.

When I had DS2, for instance, one of my friends said "Oh, better luck next time!" meaning I should try for a girl. She didn't say congratulations or anything. And I kinda went off her a bit then - not massively, just - a bit. I still think of her as a friend, but I just thought "you really don't get this, do you?" and it's much easier to be around people who do get it - and I have heaps of friends with children now (both new ones and ones I already had who've since had children) so I have found that the ones without have kind of faded away a bit. Still see them, but not as often.

I was the last in my group to have children and I can remember wondering who the hell they had become. On the rare occasions we did get together, they didnt drink in case they had to get up for the children, they talked constantly about pooing and nappies and fell asleep by 10 when I was just getting going.

If the friendship is really strong it will survive and eventually you will "get" each other again, if not you will move on.

awww TC best mates for 23 years! That is seriously impressive - you must be some friend

I'm sure it's probably a mixture of your hormones and her being a typical 'no idea what life is like with children' friend.

One of my childless friends is so goddamn understanding about my kids it almost makes me want to sob (e.g. she always comes to us because she knows I'm a bit jumpy in her beautifully decorated flat with my two playing wrestling amongst her ornaments!) but I have others who make the most hurtful comments without even realising what they are doing. Luckily, I've known them for a while and can see they don't mean it (and I can't help thinking 'oooh just you wait!').

Hope you are feeling a bit better now and the hospital tests went ok.

but do you not think that the friendships you have made since you ahve been a mum have ( and this sounds really poncey) a more profound nature to them - taht it is based on a shared experience and being a woman in its most basic sense.

And that the raise of an eybrow on a manic tuesday school run can say so much more than the hours you spent on the phone as pre children people.

And taht there are too many times with childless friends that you just don't even bother to start saying something because tehre is NO WAY they can begin to understand...

And by the way Teecee I know exactly what you mean. However much you are looking forward to dc3 you wnat to cherish the last few months that dd2 is the baby and being the middle child can be hard and you wnat to give her a lovely holiday.

Lwatkins, I don't mean to sound dismissive, but you seem to be forgetting that people with children used to be childless. We know what it is like on both sides of the river. But people who are childless haven't got the benefit of the experience of both.

YOu may think that you will still talk about 'your life' apart from 'the baby' but it's difficult, until you have a baby, to comprehend how much the baby becomes your life. And how exasperated you can feel when people say things like "Does it matter if he's ill if the babysitter will still have him?"

It is hard. As a uni student with a surprise baby ( a month old...keep having to say that!) I've seen a pretty sharp shift in friendships. The drift started when I was pg, there are many people who simply have not made the effort to stay friends at all or who keep inviting us to things we can't do anymore, evenings out etc because no matter how many times we say we would love to do lunch or a coffee or we invite them here they don't take it in and now that we can't fit into their lifestyle they don't bother. I think worse are the ones who feel they should come by to see the baby and just stare at him for a while then leave.

On the other hand there are some, a smaller group who have remained, who will pop in for a cup of tea and a chat, who will remember that we exist when going for coffee after lectures and invite us along. Sometimes baby talk comes up and they are interested but we also talk about 'normal' things. A very good friend is one who hates babies yet she is my most regular visitor for a good gossip! I like that I have someone who will always remind me there is still a world out there.

For full on baby talk there is the old aqua natal crowd, now the mum and baby group crowd, today after the session 5 of us were in the pub eating lunch with one hand while feeding and rocking babies.

Both are needed I think, friends with and friends without. Life does take a monumental shift but I think having a baby has expanded rather than changed me. My old interests are still there and it is as important to me to have friends who still see that and make me talk about them as it is to have friends who don't care if I talk about poo and vomit and bf in public.

LW- it is bloody hard, so much of uni life goes on late at night and and you do miss out. Of course there is always more to you than nappies but you tend to forget it for a while! Espcially when someone asks how you slept......I think that is the worst. Your uni friends only see you over a coffee when the lo is asleep or in lectures without the lo, they don't see the hell it can be!

after I had ds1 I rang 2 friends and apologised that I had never realised what they were going through, and I shudder at some of my thoughtlessness even now (like ringing at 6.30 pm and expecting their full attention on the phone). Before I had children I used to really get annoyed at the people who used to smugly say 'oh, it changes you' and vowed i would always be the same... and guess what..... paid up member of the flapping mummy club since the day he popped out.....

My two closest and oldest friends (30+years)are childless - one by choice, one not, and I don't think my friendships are less profound for it. Absolutely not. In fact, I think a lot of mummy friendships can be very transitory.
They don't understand a lot of your life though, it's true, but I didn't understand either. I get peed off when they make arrangements that are tricky for me, but I reason I won't always have young children, and I hope these people will be my friends for the rest of my life so I think this is a wave I just have to ride. They are both lovely to my children - like family - which really helps.

lwatkins _ i've been massively understanding of her situation and there is absolutley nothing wrong, in my eyes, in not having kids. This situation has never ever been a issue with us, and actually isn't now either. My 2 closest friends don't have kids, I do, there's never been a problem with that.

She's the most amazing friend I could ever ask for and is so into my life and my kids. She's an amazing godmother to DD1 and is really a huge part of our lives. I just sensed her being a little distant and was concerned and a little confused by it and a little upset as I feel a bit hormonal, finding it all a bit hard and that support I usually feel from her (and which she gets back from me) wasn't quite as there as it usually is.

Anyone we chatted tonight and she's being a bit at arms length about it all as a) it's such early days b) she knows the hell I went through with worried about my 2nd pregnancy that she is not being all giddy excited until she knows it's all safe.

I interpreted this as her being a bit 'ohhh God now she's having a third, she's gonna be totally lost in her world' tye thing and I was worried that she might be feeling she was losing me a bit or that she felt a bit left behind. It was in fact that she was being sensitive in these early days.

I'm hormonal and she has given up smoking and has a very poorly aunt and very poorly uncle and she was thinking she was doing the best thing by not fussing and getting excited and I was thinking she was finding it all a bit difficult.

The 2 of us are 2 close for anything to be a problem for long, she's my right arm, i'm her left!

Did I miss something? I had NO IDEA you were pregnant!

Congratulations TeeCee!

Glad you worked it out TC!

LWatkins, don't be too discouraged. I still see my pre-parenthood friends, most of whom haven't got kids. I don't really have many friends who do have small kids - for various repeated-house-moving reasons I didn't do that thing some women seem to, of making friends in ante-natal class and going right through it all together.

And I'm someone who doesn't get on all that well with normals anyway, so if I didn't have my real friends I'd be very isolated indeed.

Hi TeeCee, I sympathise because I've just come through a rocky patch with my oldest pal. Her girls are grown up, my DS is only 4 and things feel a bit disjointed at times. We are out of it now thanks to a lot of talk and cake, and everything seems to be where it should be again. 23 years is a heck of a gift. It reminds me of one of my Mum's sayings:
make new friends, but keep the old;
the new are silver - the old are gold
I know it's trite, but she always says it with a wink.