Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Am I mad to consider leaving DH at 12 weeks pregnant with DC2?

37 replies

squidgysquirrel · 07/08/2016 23:32

Ok, my first down and dirty personal thread here.

As per title, am currently 12 wks with dc2. Dc1 is 3.5.

Sorry, all this is long, but relevant to my question, so I've tried to condense.

Both DH and I are survivors of toxic families. Both of us have one parent who is a fairly extreme narc. As a result, our behaviours and boundaries in certain areas are not as healthy as I think they could be. I am in the process of going NC with my narc parent, DH went NC with his just after Dc1 was born.

We have always had a tricky relationship, but this has been much more so since dc1 was born. DH's upbringing was very abusive and neglectful, and his parents separated when he was young. His toxic parent then proceeded to totally trash the other one in front of DH, impede access of other parent to their children (DH and siblings), withhold maintenance and generally play silly buggers. DH has an OK relationship with other parent, but poor communication between them.

DH has extremely poor communication skills, low empathy, and almost no conflict resolution skills. He cannot really do closeness or intimacy, and our sex life is very strained. He is classic avoidant, unless given no option but to confront, when he switches to classic DARVO (deny, accuse, reverse victim and offender) tactics. He dismisses an awful lot of what I say and feel, however big or small, without stopping to think about it. He can be appallingly callous and it can take years for him to retain information that matters to me - even down to the mundane, eg what food I like. He is extremely judgemental and blames me frequently for my feelings. He provides very little emotional support and this has been very hard won and after much argument, pleading and explanations from me. He does provide excellent financial and practical support (finally!) and is doing more than his 50% of the domestic stuff at the moment.

I feel as though he is mirroring the behaviours of his toxic parent in our relationship, and that this is causing me to mirror some of those from my childhood and upbringing. He particularly undermines me in front of our (very observant, sensitive) dc1. What has prompted this post are a few recent incidents where if I object to how he treats me in front of our dc, dc has started telling me to leave DH alone, or similar. Naturally Dc is hearing my upset tone and picking up on his blame of me for the situation, but is not old enough to really understand why I might have reasonable grounds for being upset. He will also undermine boundaries I'm trying to set with dc and even if we agree on how to handle things, he will go back or change his plan. He is deeply uncomfortable with any strong emotions, especially anger, and pacifies and gives in to our dc's tantrums far more than I do. If I am angry or upset he will blame me or avoid me, which makes me more upset.

I feel generally as though I'm being constantly positioned as the bad cop with our dc, who (while extremely emotional and demanding in this respect) I am very close to and adore. This makes me feel frightened as I fear it is starting to damage my relationship with DC, who plays us off against each other. If I on a rare occasion get cross with DC, DH swoops in and acts as though I have done something terrible (sometimes without stopping to check what the situation actually is), and DC I know notices this and blames me too. I have a temper when pushed (violence is my trigger especially, and DC is being very violent at the moment) but I work really hard to govern this and I rarely lose my temper with DC and shout. I have had to restrain them as they are very strong and can really hurt me. DH has backed me up about half the time, but the remaining half will make his judgement and criticism of me very clear, in front of DC.

DH sought counselling a few months back after years of requests from me, but I gather it focused more on his childhood than how his behaviour is affecting us now as a couple. He isn't going currently and doesn't plan to return.

I'm used to feeling unvalued, judged and distant from him, but I value my relationship with my DC too highly to watch him damage it like this. I think I've done all I can but he will never trust me or give me the benefit of the doubt, and he doesn't seem capable of parenting as a team. I'm seriously considering leaving. Is this possible and sensible to do in this situation and pregnant? My DC absolutely adores him. He may be right - and she would be better off with him?

Apologies for length, thanks for reading.

OP posts:
squidgysquirrel · 08/08/2016 18:10

Thank you for all your replies. Memoires, you're absolutely bang on - he has some excellent points and I did see some good improvements during his counselling, which is why the second baby happened. Also agree that separation is probably the way to go, at least temporary, if not permanent.

Other than these behaviours, he is a brilliant dad to our DC. Very hands on, very engaged and struggles far less with communication, judging and empathy with her than with me. So I do believe he can overcome it, although likely not with me. He may well shape up and sort himself out, and if he does then that will only make him a better model for DC. Whether it will save our relationship, I don't know. Some very big 'ifs'.

AnotherEmma, thank you so much. Your post made me cry. It feels abusive. I think I need to do a lot of work on myself to make sure I can actually sustain any healthy relationship in future.

Icanfly, could you tell me a bit more about what steps you took and what you found difficult? I'd really appreciate any advice / tips you have.

OP posts:
squidgysquirrel · 08/08/2016 18:11

Sorry, iflyaway- misread your name!

OP posts:
CodyKing · 08/08/2016 18:18

The blame game really is wearing - you step up and nothing is right - he doesn't step up and therefore can't fail, only he is failing because he didn't step up

It goes two ways - either you did great in which case it reflects badly on him - or you failed in which case it's all your fault

But each interaction you learn something, try something else move forward and DC do grow out of things as well -

Fundamentally you are always losing because he doesn't support you or step up to help you - now avoiding the whole situation by going out

MephistoMarley · 08/08/2016 18:19

Hoe do you see this relationship changing and getting better? There is just so much awfulness and dysfunction there and it runs so deep that I can't see how you could ever improve things to a point where you have a functioning marriage and happy home for your kids. Especially as it's not his problem apparently Hmm
Yes, you really should just leave.

NameChange30 · 08/08/2016 18:20

I'm sorry I made you cry but it sounds like it was a cathartic cry so maybe I shouldn't be sorry!

I totally agree with Memories that critical questions about why you married him and had children are not necessarily helpful at the moment - clearly he did/does have his good points, and you probably put up with more of the bad points than most people would due to your toxic upbringing. However, you've been working on that and you don't have to put up with it any more if you don't want to.

In future I wonder if you might find the Freedom Programme helpful.

Take care of yourself, we're discussing some difficult truths and decisions here.

Do you have one or two close friends who are supportive?

mikado1 · 08/08/2016 21:03

I don't things are much better as such since but they are different-dc2 is one now.. what is so similar about our situations is that lack of emotional support-I actually don't know if my OH knows how to but yes, the empathy is there for ds so maybe -and also that bloody frustrating incapability of discussing things, doesn't want to and will not bevause it's a lecture and I'm right as always apparently. A temporary separation sounds wise in your situation. Wishing you the best Flowers

squidgysquirrel · 08/08/2016 22:11

So he didn't go out after all, and we talked, properly, with him listening and (mostly) responding. Progress. He agreed to come up with an actual plan, one that entails more than me waiting while he tries (and backslides), and if he's not able to then we will take steps to separate as amicably as possible. He's genuinely thinking about what I've said - although he proceeded to dismiss some of my feelings and judge them during the conversation (he did actually recognise he'd done this though - more progress).

Thank you again Emma, I think the Freedom Programme is a really good idea that will help with my family stuff as well.

Mikado, I am hearing your advice and taking it seriously. I'm sorry you're experiencing similar behaviour as me, they do sound alike in those respects. Flowers for you, I know how hard it is.

OP posts:
squidgysquirrel · 08/08/2016 22:14

Cody, thank you for that perspective. I hadn't thought of it like that before, but it's spot on. I might put that to DH, see what he thinks!

OP posts:
Memoires · 08/08/2016 23:54

The Freedom Programme would be great, very helpful for you I believe, exactly what you need.

I'm glad you talked, but try not to place too much belief in him as a result of your conversation. Those habits of his aren't going to disappear as a result of it, he very likely to put in some effort for a few days or even a week or two, but without some serious therapy and hard work from him, he is almost bound to backslide and you will find yourself back at square one very quickly.

squidgysquirrel · 09/08/2016 07:39

Yes, definitely agree, memoires- the plan needs to be therapy or similar I think, and enough of it to make a difference. I didn't suggest this again as I want it to be him that comes up with some ideas, but he did bring it up, so hopefully he will arrive at that conclusion too.

OP posts:
JBSinclaire · 13/09/2016 12:56

I am in very similar position to you. Was goaded by my dad through teenage years and I stood up for myself of course, but didn't actually realise I was having anger dumped on me and being trained like a fighting dog to go in with my teeth and hang on. Only I am about ten years further on in family life. It has worked out. It is because there is a narcissistic hook in your dh. To literally stop him being able to take a good look at his lack of empathy, too painful. To survive in a narcissistic family you need to pull yourself into the life boat and pretend other family members are not drowning. He probably never will understand and so long as you understand the dynamic he doesn't need to. That’s why he keeps on trying and can't maintain it. The hook I mean, the double bind. But remember at the start of your relationship you didn't have empathy problems like you do now, or at least not as bad. If you were really close and had a real close bond with him he would be able to step up more, and you wouldn't care about his failings so much. Angry people can only pretend empathy. I am guessing he is desperately insecure and has a desperate need to be loved and accepted. It would be typical of his upbringing. Much more than your average person. On the good side, you have the potential to have a closeness which is amazing, but you will only get it if you are very careful with him. Probably not feeling like doing it but I would advise you to go ahead like that. But what helped us was a strong support that came from outside the marriage, if you get my drift. Not impossible at any point in a person's life. Hope that is helpful. Please be aware narcissism is very complex and not something most people would understand. Would love to meet up some day as I don't have anyone else to talk to who gets it, took me years to work it out. It was worth it 😀 "tread gently because you tread on my dreams"

JBSinclaire · 13/09/2016 17:51

Ps I am suggesting here that you use warmth and empathy for your dh to provide the best environment for him to progress, as a tactic, if he feels he has it he will be more likely to return empathy for you. By no means am I suggesting that you back down on any of your requirements. And if he is good practically now, specify how he can show empathy in concrete terms ahead of time. It may reduce the chances of him messing up. But give him space or he may panic about narcissistic engulfment. The issue of a very kind daddy and a stricter mummy is no problem for us now as I can watch my dh struggle and do his very best, he is no longer creating a kid circus in order to upset me, his mum was very harsh and he can't bring himself to be like that to anyone else and he was trained to serve. I gave him a round of applause last week when he frightened our little fellow into his room, he is getting more assertive. DS does have a lot of DHs former tactics and uses them on us, used to be horrifying now I don't look at it any different to normal naughty behaviour, think he will have sharp elbows in his future career though, but the cycle has stopped firmly with our generation.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.