Advice on dealing with an abusive ex - don't lie to your children about what he did but don't slag him off either...

[Namechanger2015]

Can I ask you how you do this? I am struggling with my 8yo DD who saw my exH hit me, but asked me what other reasons were that I left him.

I tried to be honest and stick to the facts, one example I used was that he never wanted to do anything as a family, so I would take the 3 DC (aged 6, 5 and 1) on holiday or with my parents, whilst he holidayed with his friends, because it was boring to come on holiday with me (my parents came to help me but would not have come otherwise).

DD struggled with this and asked me a few weeks later - does that mean daddy thinks I am boring?

I was very upset for her, and reassured her that he does not find her boring, he comes and sees them at weekends (usually once a month even though he could come more often). He makes little digs at me, to the children directly, but does not speak to me at all (I initiated no contact).

They know he was violent and not interested in them, but they struggle with this now, as they see him and spend time with him alone and their love for him grows. Ultimately he still doesn't deliver as the decent dad, calls them once a week, sees them once a month, underpays CMS maintenance etc, wilfully hiding his cash during finance settlement proceedings, etc.

I don't know if I want the children to love him, to be honest; we seem to be much happier when he is not around, DDs are now very settled, have lots of family, friends, social life is great, etc. But he wants to see them, and they want to see him, my gut feeling is that this is better than the alternative of forcing the relationship apart.

I most definitely have told them that it is not acceptable

'Not acceptable' isn't strong enough. It is Against the Law; it is very, very serious. This needs to be your angle - their dad's minimisation of his crime is also the problem: the violence is the (serious) problem, his denying it is serious is the problem. You really don't need to be thinking of anything else to support what you have to say - otherwise you are going along with the minimisation.

I agree, donners. imo my kids would have been infinitely better off without their narc father in their lives. I wish I'd done a runner way back in the day.

You really don't need to be thinking of anything else to support what you have to say - otherwise you are going along with the minimisation

I hadn't really thought of my actions as minimising the abuse but you are right - I'm pretty much saying hitting alone wasn't a good enough reason to leave. I haven't mentioned it being illegal but I think I will.

The pressure to let children see their dads no matter how damaging they are is a huge one placed on women. There doesn't seem to be an equivalent pressure for perpetrators of abuse to stop their actions and to hold themselves accountable to it.

I agree that the children involved eventually figure out how unreasonable their dads are, but at what cost. My DDs all know there are certain things they can and can't say to dad.

Asking to see their friends or participate in any activity that doesn't centre around him is not allowed, and he will say no.

But it's a big learning curve for children so young to have to make. I would never have been mature enough to stand up for myself in the way that DD does at her age. I'm proud of her but also angry that he continues to manipulate and play the Disney dad game thinking he is the aggrieved person in this situation.

Mums who don't allow contact are demonised yet hapless dads who don't step up to the plate are seen as acceptable. Yet it's perceived that if a dad doesn't allow contact it's probably because the mum is a heartless parent who callously left her kids behind.

Apparently research (according to a court ordered course i recently was forced to attend) shows children should have a relationship wth both parents and fare better if they do.

I wonder if there's any discourse in the research about why this might be true? I guess you weren't given references!

My (ill-educated) thought on this is that in an ideal world bad parents would disappear from the face of the world. But, what is defined as "bad"? And even if would agree on a definition, bad parents don't disappear. And the bond of child to parent is so strong that presumably any relationship is safer for the child than none.

Lila That is such a good link. Thank you.

I am finding this thread some support for the situation I am in.

I always struggle to know what to tell the children. Particularly when ExH lies.

Do you think it might help your DDs if they talked to someone external about what they've experienced and the conflicting thoughts they're having? The NSPCC might be able to point you in the right direction - or the school will have experience. I'm just wondering if a third party would be able to say what you're struggling to say, IYSWIM.

They have had some counselling at school, it wasn't great to be honest as the staff member wasn't very experienced. They kept coming up with really odd solutions like I should take the DDs to stay with him every single weekend for 6 months so they would realise how bad it was living with him (?!)

I did go to my GP for CAHMS referall but was told they are not serious enough to be referred. They do have lots and lots of support from my family and they love their new life here. I don't know if he piles on the emotional blackmail when he sees them (he did this a lot last year, promises of a pet dog, a house with a swimming pool, etc) or is it that they just love their time with him and are just grieving their loss.

They are very aware that we do not have a house to live in at the moment because daddy has got all of the money and he doesn't want to share it. I felt they did need to know that as they were very angry I left their dad in the big house all alone and we are all squashed up at my parents house.

But by the same token I don't think they need to know that their aunties, uncles and grandparents (ExH's family) are also all storing money for him so that I can access any of it any more. Effectively leaving us homeless at the moment.

It's very hard to speak positively about him and not just let rip.

I'm trying to spend time with each DD individually and make sure they feel loved and secure with me and have a safe house to belong to.

And the bond of child to parent is so strong that presumably any relationship is safer for the child than none.

Yes I agree this seems to be the case. But it's a massive presumption to make.

I did go to my GP for CAHMS referall but was told they are not serious enough to be referred.

Phew. Lucky escape...

Op I'm sorry I haven't been able to offer up any useful advice. I'm finding this thread so interesting and useful too. An awful situation for any of us, and our dc, to be in but it's helpful knowing I'm not alone.
I have had such a struggle for 7 years since I left my ex, as I know he had been continually made threats against me via my dd. She would continually come home from a visit with more crap that he'd filled her head with about me. He was still able to emotionally abuse me through her for years. He is actually so manipulative that he managed to convince me again and again that my dd was exaggerating when she told me about the things he would say to her (eg, you need to go on a diet). He fooled me and played me completely even though I knew exactly what he was like. As it stands, he is no longer going to court over hitting my dd and the bail conditions have been dropped too. So she is free to see him, however Social Workers have recommended she stays away from him. She has not contacted him, and he has not contacted her or even asked how she is. She has a 20 month old step brother and today asked that I try to arrange for her to see him, which I done through his mother. His response was that she is not allowed to see her step brother unless she sees him too. She is absolutely heart broken, and now blaming me for going to the police. Her exact words were "what be done wasn't even that bad". She has basically normalised his behaviour because she is so used to it. I'm considering giving her more information on his behaviour towards me, just to make her see that he could very well hit her again.
Sorry for hijacking your thread op, finding it a good outlet.

Duck that's awful, does he not see the damage he is doing his daughter? I'm assuming his new partner is colluding with him in his behaviour then?

What on earth does he think is going to happen - that she will go to live with him or be under his spell forever?

Or is it that the just can't resist their need to be in control?

I am hoping mine will crawl under a rock once he gets bored but he seems to be playing the family game for now. I'm so so disappointed in the outcome of my marriage, I wish I had seen what he was like beforehand and then married a decent man instead!

I don't know what's worse though...I could see what he was like yet still stayed, what an idiot I was!! Don't beat yourself up for not realising, these people are master manipulators.
My ex refuses to believe any of dd's troubles are caused by him..typical narc behaviour though.

I just wanted to say I'm sorry for you OP and all dealing with abusive Ex (or current) partners.

OP - I don't think you've done anything wrong with the things you've told your DD. The fact that she's asking the questions for me would be reason enough to tell her the truth. She sounds very sensible.

All you need to do is continue being honest and truthful as to why you left him. She needs to know it's not acceptable to beat your wife up.

One day she'll see him for who he is, but by then it'll be too late for him when he winds up as a lonely old man that nobody wants to know.

I'm dealing with similar issues.

It's a massive problem. Women who are abused are told to leave to protect their children, but when they do they are made responsible to preserve their abusers relationship with those children.

I didn't want to minimise the abuse with my teen daughter as she's nearly at the age of getting boyfriends and I want her to know what is healthy. But I didn't want to "alienate" her from him.

In any case, she's now refusing to see him after he slapped her across the face and constantly criticises her, her weight etc.

Women who are abused are told to leave to protect their children, but when they do they are made responsible to preserve their abusers relationship with those children.

Yup. Something seems wrong with this, but that's the way it is.

How awful that he slapped your dd and treats her like that. I agree with your discomfort about normalising abusive behaviour and the impact on her expectations of her own relationships.

I think often you can turn their questions around which is actually helpful to them.

DD "Why did you leave Daddy?"

You "Why do think?"

DD "Daddy says it was silly for you to leave after one argument?"

You "Oh, do you think it was?"

You "Do you think it was okay that Daddy hit and strangled me?"

Obviously it has to be done completely non-defensivenessly, the purpose of it is for them to have the time and safe space to verbalise what they think to you as their loving parent. They do work it out.

Just for all of you and your DC who have to endure such awful ex partners/partners.

Genius, random!

Inspiration above is from "How to talks so kids will listen, and listen so kids will talk"!!!

I think they will have 2 feelings about the things Daddy says "I love my Daddy and I want to believe him, but I know Daddy is lying" well something like that - you can give them permission to love their Daddy whilst accepting he tells lies.

Shuffles off to reread the book...

That's good advice, Random.

I have exactly this situation at the moment - dd came after her 5-hour fortnightly contact with father very upset. He'd been criticising her for not phoning him - "You're treating me as if I'm dead". A tough guilt trip for an 8-year old. And she doesn't like phoning him because of his nastiness to her on the phone (sometimes - and sometimes he's lovely, because it wouldn't be half as much of a headfuck if he was consistent).

I can see him weaving his FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) spell around her. She's been learning about persuasive writing at school, so she can identify that daddy is trying to "persuade" her. But even though she can articulate it quite well, it's still hurting her emotionally.

I said "Can you imagine [friend's] father saying those things to [friend]?" and that seemed to help a bit - it showed that his behaviour wasn't normal. But my poor child, it's so painful and confusing when she's just a little girl who wants to love her daddy and be loved back.

I suppose it also opens up the conservations that sometimes adults are wrong, sometimes they can be unkind

Very painful conversations to have with such young DC but I guess it is so very important that they know they can love someone despite them doing unkind things. Perhaps actually we need to be more open with our DC when we make mistakes - about little things so they can see we are not perfect.

I had a conversation with my DDs this weekend, we went away and visited friends in my old home town. DDs had fun and knew their dad was nearby but didn't ask to see him - they know that dad doesn't let them see their friends.

On the way back we were discussing Brexit, Theresa May etc and I mentioned human rights and talked about the right to be free from violence. Girls were shocked that what daddy did was illegal. They asked if I would tell the police and he would go to prison and I said no - I had told the police already, but daddy said he didn't hit me, so not to worry, they won't be taking daddy away. It was very neutral and they were very accepting of it.

Why do we need to preserve the relationship between our children and their abusive parents? If doesn't help the children at all. ExH's inconsistent behaviour messed with my head completely and destroyed my confidence. Am I now supposed to allow the same to happen to my children?

No. Simply. You are not.

It's your job to protect them from abusers, to keep them safe and to give them the tools (love, respect and self worth) that will help them repel abusers who come looking for a victim.

This is why they have to know the truth (age appropriate) and that they have to know you won't lie to them.