Foundi out more - May be more dangerous than first thought.

[TheBouquets]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2638132-Watching-abuses-in-the-family-Advice-sought

I wrote the above thread. I was struggling to understand. Some people here were kind enough to advise and inform me.
It is bad enough that this "cocklodger" is controlling the household in which he lives, I think I now have some indications of even more dodgy dealings.
An older person in the family was moving furniture and I was giving some help with the heavy stuff. I was shifting some books and found a slim writing pad. It would seem that many of the pages are missing. I know I should not have done it but I did open the pad to see if it should be kept. There were notes of visits to the household where I think a female is being bullied and under the control of the OH. Some of the stuff was not good, general nastiness which is this male's normal. There is one bit that is so nasty that I am furious. This older person has come in for a load of smart talk, cheek and ridiculing in the presence of the couple's children. Also in the presence of the children the female who is was assumed was being abused had been making unfair use of the older person. As an example, buy baby nappies and take them to babysitter. Older person then asked to be texted the babysitter's address. There was no reply. There are nappies going about in a car, there is a baby in need of nappies, no information is given as to where these nappies need to be delivered. Then there is a screaming argument about the nappies not arriving at the babysitter. There are more incidents along similar lines going on over about 6 months. There is mention of the children being present during the couple shouting at each other and at the older person and one of the children. Then comes the serious stuff.

The abusive man had a birthday and card and present taken to him. He then made loads of comments concerning the older person's health.The assumed to be abused woman then joined in saying that if the older person would take some heroin they would be less boring. Then there was a discussion about is heroin available in suitable form as the older person is peg-fed due to very bad health problems. The children and another older relative was present during these comments.
A week after this the older person received a demand to make delivery of something else for the abused woman, who again does not give details of where she is in order for things to be delivered. The day after this there is a note that a further visit was made and the children were sent out the room, still in PJs at 3 or 4 pm while the man scoffs bought in food in front of the children who got no food and the person who can not eat any food now.

I really do wonder exactly what can be going on in that house. What I see is children not being treated very well and an older person equally mistreated. Our own family member does nothing to stand up for the children or the older person. There is also the question of ridiculous requests such as buy nappies take them to babysitter but no address for babysitter. It seems to me that this "man" and I use the term loosely is having a go at kids and pensioners and is allowed to by our relative.

Does this still sound like the female is the victim of abuse? Or party to vulnerable types being mistreated?

I know I should not have read another person's writing pad so I don't need told for that. I just need to know if this is still her being abused.
Thanks

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Bouquets I think you should phone SS and tell them your concerns for the children. But it will be difficult as most of this stuff you are not seeing for yourself.

Then you really really need to take a step back. This is not something you can sort out. It is not up to you to fix this. If the older person (your mum?) chooses to continue to put herself in these positions, that is her choice. I am not making a comment on whether it is right or wrong that she continues to be involved, I am simply saying that you cannot control any of the events in this or change any of the dynamics.

Would the older person speak to SS also, since it is her that is the one seeing this stuff first hand?

I think there is strangely a lot of written down detail in those notes, almost like you were there?

Why does it matter if the female is abused or abuse enabler? People can be both, indeed they often are. You obviously believe that the children are at risk. Call SS instead of trying to work out how to apportion the blame.

Liz Keen - thank you for your quick response.
The situation has been reported to SS and they choose to say that all was well in the house. This is the same choose as was made previously until the Police got called in.
The older person is my mum and the other older person is her brother. The information I gave above has dates on it and it was shortly after all this that mum withdrew for the reasons given and other events that went on. She has never gone back and it looks as if this is yet another fault.
I too have had situations where I have been treated similarly so at a later point I withdrew. There are other relatives some of whom have told us about their anger.
The problem is that if the younger female is being abused and controlled she is pretty isolated now. This is not t say that there would be no help if she chose to tell someone she is in trouble. We are aware that we cant control her (but wonder why she is controlled by an idiot). She has been this road before but does not seem to learn.
Thanks LK

I'd call SS for advice

Smorgasboard - due to previous occupation it was part of the older persons job to make and keep notes so it was not surprising to find the notes quite informative. I was not present that day. I am not surprised at the content of the notes as they fit the character.
No matter what was reported before to SS it was not acted on and left kids open to abuse for a long time which is/was not good.
If she is abused and she needs help she should get it. If she is abusing she has made her bed so to speak. No-one should make another's life any more difficult.

I'll start by saying I may not have all the 'actors in the play' in their proper roles.

It sounds as if your mum has now 'backed away' from the female family member (FFM). Has her brother (your uncle?) now backed away, too? If not, is there reportable elder abuse happening with him? That may be a different route towards getting 'official sources' involved if you feel that SS isn't responsive towards the children.

Am I correct in assuming that you are not sure if FFM in an abusive relationship or is abusive herself. Based on this and the other thread, I'd be tempted to believe that she IS being abused and is probably scared to death of 'Cocklodger'/Abuser (CL/A). Could she be mirroring CL/A's behaviour as a way of keeping herself out of trouble? Could she be suffering from Stockholm Syndrome? If so, it would be natural that she would cover for CL/A.

Do you believe the abuse towards the children is severe enough that you and/or other family members would consider contacting a solicitor to petition for guardianship of the children? I'm not sure if that can be done in the UK, but it is done here (US). It results in SS having to investigate the children's homelife. It is NOT cheap, but perhaps if all concerned relatives banded together and pooled resources?

All of you have done enough now.

I know this is incredibly upsetting for you. It is so hard to watch this and feel so powerless. But this will start to affect your own mental health.

You need to distance yourself now. No ome can make her leave him. You are all there should she decide to. That is all you can do.

Acrossthepond - I think you have got all the people about right.
Mum gave up more than a year ago. She is a bit hurt when anyone says anything about her health stuff. She would not approve of drugs either so to suggest she should take heroin in a suitable form for her health would normally have angered her but these days she gets upset.
I have had some awful things said about my DC by the CL/A. They have SN. Again this is picking on those who may be weak. I had words!! Then there were the lies about money stuff. I gave up about 9 months ago.
Next uncle was being leaned on financially. He stood his ground and demanded the money due and reduced involvement. Not sure exactly what involvement is now but in terms of location was the closest.
Elder abuse has also been mentioned to SS. They didn't do anything. I don't know what it takes with these people. They have a poor track record here.
I vary between she is in trouble and she is trouble. She works and has a car. She could make a call or drive to a house. I realise that he would be holding the DCs but surely police could go and get them by force if necessary. She does not seem to have this ability. Having been in a bad position before I don't understand how she cant see this. The house is not kept well and that would be a worry given the history.
I can see that she would want to keep the peace with CL/A but the cost seems too much for me.
It is a good idea to see what the law would be on this and I will try to get further information
Thank you

Liz Keen - I think you are right. We have all tried and failed. The failure and powerlessness is hurting. We cant make her see what is going on. It is hard to watch and I wish there was something in place to look a girls in such a position rather than waiting for them to get wise or angry. We could all do with a rest from all this. It is not that I am blaming her for this but people don't always see the effects all round. I feel punished by it all.
Thank you

Did you keep the notebook? Police might be interested.
It's good to see that you've managed to take a bit of a step back and try for a more objective view of what's happening. I know it's horrible for you! This may turn out to be something of a long haul, but I think that as you gain more objectivity, your path will become clearer.

Thought I should add, in case you aren't up to date with this: domestic violence now includes emotional & financial abuse. The victim(s) can be any close family member, not only a partner. The police do not need a victim to 'press charges', they make their own decision on this based on evidence.
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/relationships/gender-violence/domestic-violence-and-abuse/

Abusers move slowly and insidiously. CL/A didn't just start beating or abusing her. He first played 'mind games' with her until she didn't (and still doesn't) believe what she sees before her own eyes. Her truth is what he tells her it is. And education, a job, the freedom of your own car doesn't change it.

My EA ex locked me in a closet once to prevent me from leaving. I finally got out and fled to a friend's. Of course, more the fool me, I went back. He actually convinced me that it never happened! I believed it to the point where I accused my friend of lying when she tried to get me to leave him and used that as one of her 'proofs'. It was much later, when I was in counseling that the memory came back.

If she doesn't want help, you can't help her. All you can do is tell her your truth (the real truth) and tell her you will always be there if/when she wants to leave him. But that if she chooses to stay, you will not be around her abusive partner. Nor will you lend her money, run errands for her, or the like. The same should be said by other family members.

As far as the children, as useless as SS seems to be to you, I'd keep making reports, even if nothing seems to come of it. Keep reporting. Eventually you will get a worker who will see the truth of what's going on.

Garlic Shake - I did not destroy the notes. I sort of hid them back where I found them. I did not mention anything to anyone other than here. I will read through the link you gave.
Across the Pond - As far as we know there has not been any physical hitting. We get this from not seeing any bruises or any statement from her directly. He has only been seen hitting one of the children. Whether the other child in the house is now being hit I do not know. He has also done one instance of hitting one of the older persons, but we are not sure if this was meant to be a joke or an opportunity! Whichever, no-one should hit any other person.
These CL/A are something else altogether! They are so devious, I would be scared to get involved with anyone if they could turn out like this CL/A or your ex. Scary stuff. I hope your friend stuck with you.
It was the older ones who were always requested to lend money do this or that. I now mum is at the end of her road with all this. It has been over 17 years perhaps more. I myself have not been faced with demands but what makes me scream is that mum says stuff like I hope FFM is OK and that the kids are OK. Of course they are not OK they are in the hands of a piece of crap and wont let us help. I don't see what we could do without getting into trouble. Uncle is getting brave and demanding his money back from loans. He is a bit bravado so not 100% sure if it is all true.

I am living in hope that the school will see something wrong and react which would back up other people's views. SS don't seem to think much of family,
It is so hard to watch this all happening which is why stepping back is a better option than trying to hang in there for us. Not nice and not what would have been the choice but it is self protection for ourselves.
Thanks everyone

OP, has anyone spoken to the school that the DC go to? The school may not be able to say much to you due to confidentiality issues, but they should be able to chase up SS and they may have their own concerns which mirror your own.

I second speaking to the school. You can provide them with information and your concerns. They just won't be able to tell you anything back.

It is hard to watch. As long as FFM knows that you are only a phone call away when she's ready to leave, there's nothing more you can really do for her.

Sorry to say, I pushed friend away. But we later reconnected and I apologized for having doubted her.

Pocketsaviour - As far as I know none of our family has had any contact with the DC school. Around here the school have a list of people who are allowed to pick children up from school. We have never picked up from that school. It would completely be a shot in the dark to contact the school. I was thinking more along the lines that SS would think we have heard about x y and z from some source and now we are hearing from a school about a b and c. This would be always assuming that SS could put it all together, which from experience is crediting SS with perhaps more ability than they can manage. (The experiences with SS as discussed before are only the tip of the iceberg and they still cant face up to what really happened which was that kids were in severe danger for years.) The family opinion of SS is exceptionally low, with good cause.

I will discuss with others about contacting the school and see if that is a good move.
Thanks