DH "what did you do to FIL to make him do that"

[youkeepitallin]

Said after a truely awful row at the weekend about my husband's family, a source of conflict between us almost from the beginning.

I have had no contact with my family for 20yrs and for the last 15 yrs my husbands family has been my "surrogate" family if you like, we have spent every xmas with them, holidayed on 4-5 occasions and had a lot of visits and calls even though we have always lived a long way away.

When we stayed at PIL's house in winter, it was always very cold as there was no heating on. Three adults (me, husband MIL) all freezing cold but FIL was always too warm, so no heating, except when he had a cold/flu coming on (you knew he was ill when he put the heating on). One time we had quite a stink as we had a four month old baby and the bedroom was about 10 degrees. MIL said "he never likes to feel too warm"

My FIL had many good qualties but like Jekyll and Hyde he could be domineering (he died 3yrs ago) and quite horrible to me, the comment about what had you done to make him do that came after he was serving a meal to us and said to MIL "you have got lots as you deserve it" and then proceeded to put very little on my plate. I could recount many many examples and I would sit there and wonder what was going on.

we also have BIL (so daughter's husband ) he:

Never says hello to other grandchildren

Does not ask them how they are, how is school, completely ignores them;

Does not ask anybody anything about their lives;

talks about himself, his running, his special diet;

What does everyone do? Humour him - ask him about himself, show an interest even though he shows utter contempt for everyone else.

For DH to admit problems is his family is too much for him. he has always wanted me to see his family as he does, to have the same attitudes and react the same way . I lost count of the number of times I was told of his father "he is old, he will not change, you need to be the bigger person". After pretty much every visit I was told by husband what I had done wrong, what I had said wrong, what I had not said that I should have said and what I had not done that i should have done.

We now have problems with sister and this BIL following a holiday last yr when she shouted and screamed at me and I finally realise they do not want to change, they never did and I am the "problem" in trying to make them change. The accepted the bad parts of FIL and that was that. They accept the bad behaviour of daughter and because she is favourite, also her husband. I am held up to a different standard.

I was welcomed into his family and for that I am grateful but I never saw how powerful the dynamic was between them and finally, finally I am learning to step away, not comment on anything, make no observations about them, how they interact etc and stay on the sidelines.

my in laws are like this. will never say anything to your face. they will even encourage you to do the opposite of what they want you to do eg. want you to leave but insist you have a cup of tea. and then bitch that you had another cup of tea when really you should have gone. all sorts of 'confidential' chats behind my back and i'm left wondering wtf is going on. then at some point some family member will have a quiet word. or even worse take it upon themselves to misrepresent me to other family members. no-one actually bloody talks to each other. it's all done behind the scenes.

i have distanced myself now and feel much better.

Marks out of 10? That's not right.

That said, you should let sleeping dogs lie with your fil as he is no longer around, so 1. he can't defend himself, 2. you should factor in the sadness your dh will feel and 3. you can't do anything about his behaviour now he's gone. I know it feels unresolved but these 3 things will always be obstacles to you getting your dh to understand how you felt about his behaviour.

Regarding his sister and bil, yes let him deal with it as you are resigned to do anyway.

I can see why you would feel sad about the loss of yet another family you had high hopes for. What about your mil? Can you maintain some sort of relationship with her? Can you see how things may have been hard for her if her husband was controlling and her dd has gone down the same path?

It sounds like you have had to deal with a lot of difficult relationships, your own family, your PiLs, your BiL and now your DH. I think you are right that detaching from the situation may make it feel lees stressful and easier to let it flow over and around you.
I firmly believe that it isn't possible to change other people, all we can do is change the way we react to them and then hope that in turn they start to respond differently to your new approach. If we keep on doing the same old things then we can't be surprised when the outcome is also the same. It sounds like you have come to realisation that you can choose how to react to them all, be clear with yourself that this is a strong, positive decision to improve your life. Don't feel that not engaging is weak or "letting them get away with it", be proud of your choice.

They have their dynamic, disfunctional or otherwise, and changing that is very difficult, probably impossible. It's what they do. And it sounds like SIL has married a man like her father because that's her normal.
I wonder how many times they heard FIL treat MIL exactly as you are being treated by DH. The comment about deserving food is telling. MIL had been good and had a reward, you weren't good enough. I wonder how many times she wasn't good enough for rewards?
So they're all enmeshed in the legacy of a controlling man.
You can change how you react to it though and refuse to let your dc see it as normal. If DH wants to examine your misdemeanours then he must not do it in front of the DC. He shouldn't do it at all, obviously! Detach from them as a family. Either physically or emotionally.
DH needs to understand the disfunction but he hasn't got a lived example.

Your 'D'H's behaviour is emotionally abusive. Normal men do not mark their partners out of 10 or list ways 'they've 'ruined' a visit. Do you want to continue a relationship where your needs are minimised? Your blamed for everything? Where not visiting in winter with a young baby is seen as behaviour worthy of punishment?

Thank you everyone. I feel very sad to say that most things are just easier now without his father here and I do feel tremendous sadness about that because he could be very good company, i talked to him a lot about things in the news etc. i just could not manage this other side to him.

My husband will frequently point out that my behaviour has not always been covered in glory but I would defend myself by saying i felt very very trapped, unable to free myself from a (as i see it) really unhealthy dynamic and knowing i woud never have his support.

There is a glimmer of hope in that we had a disagreement with mother not so long ago and he backed me up and i was concilliatory with her (when she was in the wrong) and everything ended up being ok.

But we had an awful holiday with his sister last yr during which she screamed in my face and i am ashamed to say i did end up telling her to f off. This has in typical fashion all been brushed under the carpet, the nuclear family are all happy with one another.

So that just leaves me......

The row at the weekend happened because we had skyped with his mother(!) and talked about something involving his two sisters and one sister (with the awful husband) MIL always ascribes the best of motives (she had not sent either of our children a birthday card) but "her heart is in the right place" other sister "well you can never rely on her" and we talked after calmly about the contrasting ways MIL sees her two daughters and later after talking about something else my husband said " the basis of a good relationship is being open with one another and talking about things" i then said that his family do not appear to have been able to do that. He went ballistic and i mean ballistic. He had had a good relationship with his mom and dad and he would not change a thing. But he would do things differently with his children.
Then all hell broke loose and a lot got said.

I'm not sure you're the only one who isn't happy, it's just that they reach a stage where they just brush it under the carpet after they've had an issue with each other whereas you want to deal with it out in the open.

They're just not likely to do that. And there really is no way you can make them do that (not that you are saying you would). They have to work it out themselves.

It would be better for you to just ignore the weird behaviour as much as you can and reframe it in your mind as examples of weakness on their part rather than them trying to exert control over you. Because that is what is at the base of controlling behaviour: a feeling of weakness and wanting to dominate others.

So if sil does something rude or unkind, just roll your eyes and walk away. Don't go on holiday with her again. Even in a healthy family holidays can be a nightmare because they are full of stress triggers (different places, agreeing on where to eat together, drinking etc) so don't feel like it's not 'normal' to fall out on holiday. It's actually quite 'normal' in my experience to have a falling out, but how it's dealt with is when things become dysfunctional.

What I have found useful is to think about the things that trigger someone's controlling/rude/unkind behaviour so that you are aware when entering into a situation with them how they might respond. It makes you feel a lot less threatened and upset. It's actually quite interesting when you get into it. You can see why they need to do things a certain way - it makes them feel safe and it's often not meant to upset other people, it's just they have a need to be in control.

Ah. It's too much for him to see the contradiction. It can be very destabilizing and cause people to freak out (get angry/sad).

You need to step back and let him come to that conclusion himself, rather than pointing it out. It's too much for him to cope with mentally.

You are a few steps ahead of them because you don't have childhood history with them whereas your dh does, so you have a more objective view and feelings whilst your dh's whole makeup is based on his family dynamic.

Yes rickety, the really interesting thing is that my background was a lot like FIL's. MIL said that it was as if his father hated him. And my father spoke to us as if we were dirt. It has had a poweful effect on me throughout my life and i think it did FIL, he had to be in control. It was his house and he would bloody well do want he wanted. But his rude behaviour was laughed about (someone was once round for dinner and droing on so he examined his shoe and then got up and left the room and did not come back). If i ever did that my husband would bollock me .

It is just the gross unfairness of it that I have never got my head around. I expect fairness and it just does not work like that. So I would have liked SIL to apologise for screaming at me (i had said to her that her husband was using the washing machine every morning and I would like to put some washing on before we went out). Fair enough it would have been better had i not said it - but I just expected him to be fair to everyone staying or for her or someone else to say somethin to him. But as my husband said you won't get an apology, we have all got over it so move on. She shouted and was horrible to me 3 times, completely overreacting but that is their way. I am interfering in their way of doing things.
The only solution is to keep out of absolutely everything.

You are absolutely right, he does not want stuff pointing out to him but it is because HE has held me up to such high standards over the years that i expect him to do the same with other people.

I have seen it as I am not worth him risking his family relationships for but he also never stood up for his mother when his father spoke horribly to her. It is just too much for him so I must be the trouble maker.

In terms of keeping out of everything, I think the best solution is for you not to spend time with these people. No more holidays together (obviously your husband could go with children if he wants) and a visit at Christmas but stay in a hotel. You don't have to allow yourself to be bullied. But I'm concerned also that your DH is emotionally abusive and controlling. And to stop that happening you will have to confront him, or leave.

Sorry just to be clear, he never said marks out of ten. This was my interpretation of what he was doing. I have confronted him, i have told him how i felt that he never supported me against his father. I have told him how i felt about that. He does not want to see the shades of grey, that his father was good and bad, just as the rest of his family is good and bad.

I must stay out of any discussions that are not directly to do with me and the children as i always feel i must defend myself. SIL did not send a birthday card to either i our children and i said i thought it was poor, i do it with presents every yr - help the children make cards for their cousins. Probably because we have had a lot of grief with her he did not like me saying that and snapped at me. I said fine you do it all now, they are your sisters after all. He then said on Skype to his mother " well we will continue doing cards anyway" i said no WE won't, not after you were unpleasant to me. He did not like me saying that in front of his mother. But i will have no more chinese whispers and behind the back stuff involving me. Things don't get done - it will be down to him.

If you don't like his family .... especially SIL being rude and shouting at you.. don't spend time with them.
I would have told her not to shout at me... I'm not her child and I don't appreciate it.

As for BIL talking about himself... just ignore him. If he doesn't ask about your kids leave him be.

My DHs family is very very different to mine. I accept them as they are.... and when one was rude to me I stood up for myself. I will not be spoken to like that and my family would never be rude to DH.

Your FIL was old and old people are set in their ways. Just ignore them. If it was me I wouldn't have visited when it was very cold.
Why did you with a little baby as well.

Try not to stress yourself over things you cannot change.

Don't visit. Let DH go on his own. Stay at home and chill out.

They are bullies, and your DH is throwing you under the bus because he hasn't got the awareness or the courage to stand up to them himself.

In short, he is not a partner to you: he would rather sacrifice you and your wellbeing, than rock the boat with his FOO.

I wouldn't want to be married to such a man. How soul-destroying to be constantly sacrificed by the person who is meant to be your partner in life.

Are you around 45 years old? That is a great age because there comes a time when you just don't take the crap anymore. on telling your dh to deal with his family-that is exactly right. You are not his ambassador.

They have treated you as if you are an alien from another planet. I got that from my ils too. Give them the gift of your absence. You are not welcomed there, so don't go there.

On the food example...your mil did absolutely nothing to deserve a reward. Your fil was just using her to get at you. And food as reward/punishment is just plain f*cked up. The heating of the house too. He sounds bonkers...stuck in his ways, yeah...bonkers.

It is hard to process the injustices done to you while you are still enduring it (even the crap you had from your childhood/family of origin). Your fil passed on and now 3 years on your consciousness feels a little safe to examine it. But you are still in the dynamic with mil/sil/and dh. Imho, you are still in survival mode and won't thrive until you make more concrete boundaries. Can you get some counselling for yourself?

Read Toxic Inlaws by Susan Forward.

Your dh is in FOG (fear obligation guilt) regarding his family. He won't choose you over them until he can see that he needs to break free and live his own life and not live to the family's assigned roles.

The entire family, your dh included, sound as if they have extremely rigid thought processes. I highly doubt you will change that. For the wider family I would limit contact and avoid any confrontation since you won't receive any support from dh and they are unlikely to see your point of view.

It's good you stand your ground with dh. He's the one to work on even if it's very slowly chipping away at his long held beliefs about the world. I wouldn't, however get into debates about family. You just won't ever agree so best agree to differ if you want some kind of harmony.

I wouldn't like any of this and would be very much limiting my contact with them.

I think you've had a rather rough deal on here OP. Your DH's family sound horrible; dysfunctional, unkind and quite sad in a way.
Your DH has shown an appalling lack of respect for you over the years, plus a total lack of support. It's all very well people saying "you can't change people" but you really shouldn't have to put up with this.
I would be inclined to sit down with him and discuss - in a calm way if possible - how his behaviour and lack of support has affected you over the years. It he goes "ballistic" again I would start thinking very carefully about maybe calling it a day.
You deserve a lot more than this. Good luck.

OP your experience has been idetical to mine. Except my husband has one sister and my FIL is alive. Things changed for me though when my SIL got married and my husband saw the diffrence between how our wedding was and his sisters. He went into therapy a year ago and still goes regularly. We have barely any contact. They have closed ranks. I was on the verge of leaving him and now i have my husband back.

OP, I think you are dredging this all up and confused as to why and some psychoanalytic therapy would really help.

You need to confront:

1. why you struggle to 'get over' poor family behaviour (I think you have guessed correctly that this is linked to your own issues with controlling family members and the pain they probably caused you as a child and as an adult).
2. why people are behaving in a controlling, bad way towards you.
3. most importantly, why your DH is failing to put your needs first and why you are failing to confront this behaviour.

It is tough, I have similar, though not as bad, family and IL issues to you and often the MN chorus of 'you don't have an IL problem you have a DH problem' is not particuarly helpful.

Its true, but doesn't really address the issue imo.