This is really chilling, I think

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Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

It's not wrong to be angry about having been mistreated or let down. Espeically if you've had years of it being inverted. Anger is okay, it's okay to feel your feelings instead of sucking it up and being the nice little dutiful daughter/son no matter what it's doing to you inside.

Entitled, yes, we're entitled to some peace, we're entitled to be angry, we're entitled to autonomy..

Defensive, of course, in terms of self preservation, survival etc.

You think these things are negative, that's your spin.

In the West, we are a spoiled culture used to having our own way because post war we have become used to being so liberated.

You all sound angry, entitled,

This suggests you think there is a level of abuse that normal people should accept willingly? And it's spoiled and entitled (behaving badly/having a bad attitude) to attempt to separate yourself when all attempts to communicate your feelings and change the relationships have failed?

All the posts here are discussing EPs who the ECs perceive as abusive or cruel and where the relationship was not working; this was why NC was the final step.

So what is your point Nina? Do you go on the relationship threads about DV and pontificate about communication with a by line of "well obviously I mean in normal relationships you should do that"?

Am I missing something here?

NC isn't the norm. If a relationship has gone NC, it was already permanantly damaged/damaging in some way and not a normal family tiff where people just need to be the bigger person and say I'm sorry and I love you!

MerdtheFuck - you don't care if the parents feel pain? That's up to you. You're free to make those kinds of choices.

No - I honestly don't "care" if abusive people feel pain as a consequences of their actions. Be as stunned by that as you'd like.

And once again - I don't think anyone ends a relationship based on Internet advice. They do it out of necessity. They don't need people to say "please heal your relationship if possible" because this is the default - who wouldn't fix it if possible? Seriously, who do you know who would do that?

Yes - I'm defensive. I deserve to be defended. Victims do. People like you are dangerous because you've come on to a thread where not one person has said "God, I hate my mum, she made me wear yellow and I don't like that colour so I've cut her off". It's almost all narcissistic, toxic, or physical abuse - and you've told people that no-contact is something to avoid, that it'll cause them pain.

The person doing the cutting off damages the relationship forever so make sure it's the right thing.

No - the abuser damaged the relationship forever.

(Garlic I know. I even like myself most days too, bizarre!)

I wonder if your personal definition of abusive and cruel is not one you would apply to many of the situations described here, and so don't see the decision to go NC as acceptable.

I'm not sure how you can say 'you've all done the hard yards' (implying there is complaining here about having a hard time for not very much really) and that everyone (all of you) sounds entitled - and then add that you didn't mean the ones who experienced abuse?

I think there's also a noticeable fogginess around the term 'abuse'. Even the most hysterical EPs grant that NC might be permissible in cases of abuse, but that is only ever described as some mythical bad thing that other evil people do, somewhere out there.

What happened in their own families is never abuse, even if it involved behaviour which to an objective outsider clearly would be defined as abuse such as beatings, sexual inappropriateness, parentification of children etc. And that's without even considering the full range of more subtly unacceptable or inappropriate behaviour, including intrusive unwanted communications, general invalidation of the adult child's feelings and wishes, and repeated dismissal of their attempts to set boundaries.

I'm dangerous for suggesting that where there is a chance to heal a bond, people should consider it?

Well, yes, because if there is a chance to heal.. people will try to heal..
If they've stopped trying, there'll be a reason

Its a strange thing to say, again to make reference to other threads, it's like going on a depression thread and saying "I'm not saying that people shouldn't have treatment if they need it, I'm just saying, if you can just shake it off and get on with things, you should!"

It's the default and anyone who isn't doing the default probably already fits into the caveats you're not applying to your statement!

Yes - dangerous exactly as I've spelled it out above, don't be disingenuous now.

You're not listening to the people talking here, you're playing to an imaginary audience of people ready to hurl off their parents for no reason.

Your advice is dangerous for the mental health of people who don't have salvageable relationships and have spent decades or more already trying their damnedest to fix them. There is a point where NC is ok.

... Having said the above though, I've realised I'm being a bit dramatic about not caring: I have full-on dreams about which I've spelled out here FGS and haven't ever taken down my mum because I know what it would do to her - so I care a bit. But in a choice between my mental health and her having control over me, I care more for me.

That's probably what you'd call selfish, and I'd agree - but selfishness is sometimes the best thing for self-preservation.

I posted in response to the OP. I have not read through all the posts so my comments related to the first post which was about a parent requesting reasons for being cut off.

Light dawns.

Nina59 why has your DD gone NC with you?

Nina ... you came on to a forum on a post with over 700 messages and skipped ahead to say whatever you felt like. Ignoring a massive discourse and leaping in with a "but do remember to just fix it if possible!" comment is just ... not good communication.

You can call me bitter and angry and shrug me off all you like - I agree that an argument is futile, and we don't know each other IRL so it doesn't really matter I'm sure.

But can you see any of what I'm saying above and why I and others might react crossly?

If you don't usually go on forums maybe you think it's fine to just ignore the chat beforehand but usually it's better to have a quick scan read at least. Some threads turn a total 180 degrees by this far in.

I don't have time to look at your book and learn fully about your situation tonight, I'm sorry, so this might be a totally wrong guess - but if your ex was the abuser, then maybe your daughter feels the same ambivalence towards you that I do towards my dad (the enabler). It sucks but sometimes that happens - cutting off one with the other.

Ok you've said your DD has low contact and you think your relationship with your ex is the reason - but what are these? Can you talk about it? What has she actually said?

I'm trying not to bombard you with questions. But I have noticed that a lot of EPs really struggle with accepting any blame for the estrangement and are quite defensive and critical of any reasons the ECs give. I think it's called DARVO-deny, attack, reverse victim and offender.

You can't stay angry about what people have done to you. It will poison you.

I actually think the opposite is true in my case. When I kept "bouncing back" trying to make it work, getting over each hurt and going back only to be gutted when I was hurt again..that was poinsonous to me!

I agree that lifelong, fierce & unremitting anger is probably detrimental. But there are so many shades and contexts within that.

For instance, I am permanently angry about the issues that make me a feminist. The issues are still here, and will be when I die. I think this anger is healthy. It wouldn't be good for my self worth to accept being a third-rate human as my rightful place, and I have already made a difference which also helps me feel good/useful/worthwhile.

I've been angry about politics for the past seven years. Similar story.

Regarding my birth family and other significant relationships that were dysfunctional, I get angry in cycles depending on where I'm at in my individual recovery process. The anger's a very necessary part of validating my experiences to myself (bad things were done to me; I should feel angry!) and, once that's been processed a bit further, I move along the spiral.

I rather suspect nothing would ever change without anger.