This is really chilling, I think

[404NotFound]

Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

I mean her loveis so warped and wrong that it means I can't live with it.

Although I also wonder if she isn't going to die at all, but just go on and on and on. Anger and bitterness seem to be mighty sustaining

I think this true, her health is dire yet her bitterness seems to drive her feuled by whatever feud is going on at the time. It seems to give her sustenance! I think her funeral will be a long way off..

I picture myself being guilted by nurses into visiting a frail 120 year old in the future, only to have her suddenly sit up in her death bed and tell me I'm worthless and worse.

Merd, well I am glad it made you laugh, that's a result anyway as we all benefit from a good laugh. I'm glad you know what I mean, I was worried when I thought about it as I thought people might think I was minimising it.

Omg, amazing how the same themes keep coming up for lots of us! The digging in of fingernails! My mother (not at all frail genuinely) would massively attention-seek by pretending she was going to fall when out and about (this was in recent years, not when we were children) and she'd shriek, 'I'm going to fall, I'm going to fall, I'm going to fall!' and grab your arm and really pinch! My sister and I used to be covered in pinchy bruises. Except at the doctor's surgery, where I'd offer her an arm and she'd push it off and march in a sprightly fashion into the dishy GP's room like a woman half her age. I'm in my 40s fgs and she'd pinch me! I'd forgotten that!

Been lurking. Got to about half-way down the page but just wanted to add to the voices.

It's validating. It's freeing knowing that we're not alone in this struggle. I've been mostly NC since March with my mum, but it's been on and off for several years. I've finally come to the realization that we wouldn't think twice about dumping a relationship outside of the family who treated us this way, so why put up with someone just because of relation? It was a lightbulb moment for me and it suddenly just made sense.

My mum is the ultimate martyr. She is a pot-stirrer. Gossip. She plays her kids against each other and now that she's divorced from my dad, she tries to play us against him. (Thank god we have one sane parent.) She messes with our guilt and emotions and it's always about how much she's done for us, how much of her life she's given up to raise us, how much time she's invested in us, and how ungrateful we are to her now. When we finally go try to spend time together, she acts like we're not there, we're taking up too much of her time, and there's always something more important that she'd rather be doing. She moved to a very warm location and tries to guilt us to coming and seeing her because she picked out a giant house with room for everyone (I took the kids to visit her and she shouted at them for touching things, otherwise generally ignored them, and was completely unhelpful the entire time. I might has well had been in a hotel on my own). She's completely unable to have an adult conversation about anything, she can't handle the fact that she might have done something to hurt someone because it really was their fault anyway, she rewrites history and completely forgets the way things happen, when telling stories she often will inflate the details to favour her. It's exhausting. It's just become easier to not talk with her or associate because of all the times over the years I've reached and tried to have a relationship, be there for her, try to patch things. A few times it felt like things were getting better and it felt like there was change on the horizon and a chance of a better relationship... only to have it fall apart due to another drama-filled event. I'm done. Just tired of feeling disappointed and to be made to feel like anything relationship-wise is my fault between she and I.

I do sometimes wonder if I'd been an emotionally healthy person, would I have wanted children earlier and tried for them when I was younger and more fertile? But then there could have been other delays.

Merd, this is me too and I have often wondered how my life might have been if I had had a different upbringing and a different outlook on life. It took me many many attempts and many miscarriages but I do have a child and it was worth it in the end. I also think it would have been worth it if we hadn't succeeded, and also think that my life, once I'd got over the terrible sadness, might not have been just as good in other ways (it really is fucking hard being a parent, particularly when you don't have a healthy blueprint to follow). Sorry if this is out of line. I hope you get what you want.

I haven't posted here before or on any of the other NC type threads but have read a lot of them. I am in a strange place with it all. I have found this thread really valuable, though, so thanks.

Although I also wonder if she isn't going to die at all, but just go on and on and on. Anger and bitterness seem to be mighty sustaining

This is applicable to my father. He's been very physically ill for many years but still going (and still being vile to everyone), he's very religious very devout (I know the irony) so I actually wonder if it's fear keeping him alive because whatever he pronounces to those he abuses I think he knows he's not a good person.

The use of money to control pisses me off. My parents maintain they haven't favoured either child 'because the wills split everything right down the middle' I don't give a fuck! I'd rather get nothing but have had genuinely loving parents!

Merd I started ttc quite young sometimes there's no reason other than minor physical quirks (like low vit d) good luck with ttc and future pregnancies

I am slightly curious about their wills. I don't give a stuff if it all goes to my brother. Genuinely. I am expecting that.

But I am curious if they will go to the bother of changing it to take me out. Its something that I really cannot call either way, when usually they are very predictable.

Did anyone read the thread from a pregnant woman wanting to say NO visitors immediately after giving birth? One poster came on saying how she'd been all over her nephew within 20 minutes of his birth and that it was her right etc. I'm hoping she was trolling as she was adamant that she was as good as his mother etc and would have gone nuclear if anyone tried to stop her.

Yea I saw that. Totally nuts! I was lucky when I had dd we lived overseas and so they were easily kept at arms length.

Merd dp is older than me, as he felt it took him until his early 40s to realise that what he wanted was a long term relationship and a family (up until then he had been a bit wild). He and his siblings had been told they should get married from an early age, despite his parents obviously not being in a happy or healthy marriage. Both his siblings succumbed to the pressure and had early, disastrous marriages, whereas as he resisted it until he felt he had sorted himself out.

As for living ages on bitterness, mil had her 90th last year. So that definitely resonates! A great big party in an exclusive venue, like a wedding (mil v wealthy and tries to use money as a weapon). It was... er interesting as the 2 nc members of the family were there. I just decided we would be super polite so if they behaved badly, then it looked bad on them. One of them walked out while her husband was giving a speech for mil and then refused to sit on our table! I think we've got to the point where it was just laughable, really. I mean what are you missing not having people like that in your lives? And after this great big banquet, mil did nothing but moan and obviously hadn't enjoyed it at all, it was all for show. We just sat and chatted with some of Dp's nicer relatives and had a nice time!

*superficially polite, as in channel the penguins from Madagascar "just smile and wave boys just smile and wave"

404. I genuinely think the mother quoted in the OP might be my mother. She wrote and asked for a list of grievances. I never responded. Can you send me a link for the fb group please?

Just read the rest of the thread and actually it can't be my mum as I haven't been NC with her for 9 years. Just shows how similar their script can be.

I went NC with my mum finally when she lied and denied she had said something to my dd which I am sure she said. She accused my dd of being mentally ill and making it up. The fact she was prepared to sacrifice her own granddaughter to try and wheedle her way out of being in the shit for saying nasty, hurtful things about be spoke volumes. She alternated between denying it and then admitting that she had said something similar but only out if concern for me!!

WTFisSimon - it's an open FB group called Parents Abandoned by their Adult Children. I look at it every so often just to remind me not to weaken and stick my hand back in the crazy. But there's loads of this kind of crap all over the interweb - it's fascinating how similar the scripts are, as if they're all reading from the same manual.

it's fascinating how similar the scripts are

It's like all controlling nutters in the Internet age: they gather together, in a way they couldn't have done a generation ago, and concoct what to them are killer, knockout arguments. That these arguments are nonsense and that in any event the people they will purportedly knockout aren't listening, doesn't seem to bother them. It's not just parents on "estranged parent" websites; the same basic script is repeated on "how to stop your child from growing up and leaving your lunatic cult church", "why would any be so crazy as to vaccinate their children?" and so on. They have convinced themselves, and have no insight into why it doesn't convince anyone else.

There's currently a meltdown going on in the comments section of the Issendai blog, if anyone has a couple of hours to while away. The original post deconstructs her email correspondence with an estranged parent, who then turns up in the comments section to shout at people who are trying, very politely and insightfully, to deconstruct the dynamics of what's going on.

Someone has posted this, which I'll share here for the benefit of those who can't face trawling through the 200+ comments, because it so neatly pinpoints the underlying logical fallacies held by many EPs, which makes reasoning with them feel like trying to dice fog:

Your son is not responsible for your emotions. Your emotional reactions to his choices are not the sole determiner of whether his actions are justified, and you do not get to override his decisions simply because you don’t agree with them.

who then turns up in the comments section to shout at people

And when asked whether he thinks this is an effective way to convince people of your position, says "I don't give a shit". Which tends to make one think, along with the references to the SWAT gear he wears to work and his taste for guns, that the conversations with his son might have been lacking a certain nuance.

Well quite. He doesn't exactly come across as someone with whom one could have a calm and reasoned difference of opinion.

Wow what an article 404.

There’s no need to resolve or even acknowledge the conflict between two completely incompatible pieces of data provided that they both feed the emotion machine

This sums up exactly what I thought through reading many posts on the GN thread, and many other writings from EPs.

Well, of course I couldn't resist taking a peek at the fb group...oh dear, not a very strong grasp on reality, and a definite 'broken record' quality. What's interesting is that their (in)ability to hold their own behaviour up to scrutiny doesn't seem to be limited to responses to accusations made by their own children.

For example, whoever is running the page has posted a link to this blogpost:
flyingmonkeysdenied.com/2016/04/15/when-the-kind-parent-is-the-targeted-scapegoat/
which I've pasted partly as it looks like a fantastic resource for us.
The responses from the group members are along the lines of, 'Yes, this is my daughter exactly/she has no compassion/well, she has compassion but not for her family/I have no idea why she cut us off/so many parents are going through agony as a result of their compassionless children', etc etc. All of which bears exactly NO RELATION to the link, which is all about the behaviour of narcissistic parents towards their coparent and the negative impact of that on the children. Yes, they're talking about YOU GUYS!

I am so gobsmacked by this complete disconnect that I keep clicking between the two pages and expecting to realise that I've completely misread either the blogpost or the fb group comments, so feel free to tell me I'm wrong. But, but... It's as though everyone there is speaking a kind of fake English where the syntax is all in place but the content is completely nonsensical.

And then imagine trying to decode all of that nonsense as a child.

It should be heartening really - to know that it isn't us, it really, really, really is, and always was, them.

I'm NC with my mother after she punched my face during one of her many drunken abusive episodes. Three years of peace!

She has since denied punching me, forgetting that she phoned my aunt on the same night to brag about "almost knocking my head off".

She has sent emails to the whole family calling me a liar, denying things she's said and done, and saying I'm simply jealous of her.

She did see my kids initially but I wasn't comfortable with it so now she doesn't. She tries to emotionally blackmail my DH on email often. He has FOG due to his own (good) parents being deceased. She tells people he's "fighting her corner". He isn't.

I caught her and my aunt's husband almost about to snog. Their mouths were one inch apart, wide open (boak). When I walked into the room they jumped apart. They obviously deny it but there is no mistaking what I saw. I've only repeated to people what I saw, no more. She tells people I have spread rumours that they're having an affair. I haven't.

Oh I'd like to add that she tells people I have bipolar disorder. I have never had any mental illness.

MrsLupo, I think you're spot on.

It is indeed like a parallel universe. Complete inability to examine their own motivations and actions is a defining feature, and they react furiously to any suggestion that this might be a useful thing to do. One recurring theme is that anytime an article is posted that doesn't exactly fit their narrative, there's a little flurry of outrage, and people start doing huffy flounces along the lines of, "I come here for support, not to read these hurtful, hateful accusations, I'm leaving".

Another recurring theme is the one that goes, "I know I was a good parent, whatever my daughter says". Often combined with a narrative along the lines of, "We had some difficult times, like any family, nobody's perfect [insert stories of relationship breakup, domestic violence, physical chastisement of children, mental illness, alcoholism, the full house of adverse childhood experiences], but I always put my children first and I know I was a great mother to them".

So that's okay then.

she tells people I have bipolar disorder

I've noticed "bipolar" increasingly often bandied around as some sort of despicable diagnosis - when they mean blowing hot & cold, which is nothing like bipolar. They say things like "X switches in seconds/hours from happy & outgoing to angry & sullen". Everyone else goes "Clearly bipolar!" In many cases, it looks like X began the interaction with good will and an open mind, only to find the craziness still happening, so they got cross and gave up trying.

I sometimes wonder whether the police and medics have to deal with many calls for a MH section where the supposed crazy person was just stopping supply to a narc. I've never made an emergency MH call but, if the screening service sounds overly suspicious, I'd guess this might be why!