This is really chilling, I think

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Namechanged for this, as potentially too identifiable to FOO stalkers.

I am NC with FOO, for a variety of reasons, none of which I particularly want to rehash here. Occasionally I lurk on a FB forum for parents of estranged adult children, because I find it morbidly fascinating and actually quite validating to observe just HOW bonkers the mindset is.

Today I found this post on there, which sent shivers down my back because it is SO similar to the kind of thing my NMother has sent to me:

The last time I wrote my daughter...a few years ago, I stated the following: "When a person is charged with a crime, the accused is presented with a list of grievances. As your mother, I feel I am entitled to no less a list of grievances in support of your claims of hatred towards me." I've never received a reply, because she has none. We as parents shouldn't accept responsibility for our adult children's short-sightedness and bad behavior.

As ever, it's much easier to see the crazy when it's not your own personal situation being hashed out, but OMG at the demand that the adult child justifies her emotions with a bullet-pointed list of grievances before there can be any question of her being permitted to feel her own feelings. And these people wonder why they are estranged. You'd think round about the time you wrote about your entitlement to a list of grievances to support your child's claims of hatred towards you, you might get a glimmer of realisation about why your adult dc didn't want to be around you. But apparently not.

Yeah, that thread has taken a dark turn.

I would suggest that the poster trying to rationalise walks away now. It can't be fun having your words twisted and being patronised while never having your (well made) points acknowledged. No one needs that. Leave them to it.

In GP rights cases, courts/ cafcass also ignore emotional abuse and manipulation. All they assess is the child's feelings & GP wants. Even if GP are bombarding adult child and spouse with legal stuff and making their lives very difficult, cafcass ignore this

The worry for us is once the GP has got something, they will immediately put in another application to get more. Which means potentially engaged in a 16-y ongoing family legal proceedings. GP is rich and doesn't work - fighting us is her 'hobby'. It is very forget being

Frightening, not forget being

Both children said they were scared of GP but cafcass have over ruled that in giving GP 4h in contact centre

I think contact with grandparents depends on the history. I have 3 grandchildren and one has had a troubled home life. His parents are no longer together, they have had problems with infidelity, financial problems, PND and DV. By the time GC was 7 he had been to 3 different nurseries/pre schools and 2 schools, he had lived in 3 homes with the family together and 2 with his mum as a single mum. He was alone in the house with his mother when she attempted suicide.

He has always slept at my house for 2 or 3 nights a week, I generally pick him up from school at least 3 times a week and sometimes 5. He refers to my house as home. When social services were involved, after the suicide attempt, he was placed with me as a safe place and we were involved in working with his mother and social services so that he could return home.

I never take sides between his parents and see both of them regularly. I have been screamed at for things like giving him the wrong drink in his packed lunch to putting something into the tumble drier that I shouldn't have. I did offer to replace it. I have never been offered, or wanted, a penny for food or petrol although as a pensioner I am not well off. I have helped both parents out financially when things were tough, they are both on track now, and I have taken GC on holiday several times.

I have worked hard at maintaining my relationship with both parents as I think it would be very damaging for my GC to lose contact with us. His mother is very volatile and has been on anti depressants for years. Both parents are quite distant from GC, not huggy people and he is a child who craves affection.

I hope it would never come to me having to go the legal route to maintain contact with him but if I had to I would, not for me but for him as we have been a huge part of his childhood, we have more contact with him than his father and sometimes more than his mother, depending on her MH at the time.

Sorry to take things off topic but I just wanted to explain that sometimes contact with grandparents is very important.

London83 that sounds awful. Not all grandparents are the same and of course not all parents are either. I think that is why it is important to look at cases separately. I certainly don't think children should have to see someone they are frightened of.

Gawrsh. Just been and had another look.
Brave "notanan" - being taken apart now for all sorts of things - and I see the posters who are still engaging in their own rhetoric and failing to understand entirely what "the other side" is actually about. :(

Exactly grannytomine not all the same. I don't know what it is about cafcass but I've never met or heard of a cafcass officer that isn't weirdly biased against believing emotional abuse

A is possible

B is happening

C is just as damaging as other forms of abuse.

My ex and I went to court re contact, he was really messing dd about something awful. I stopped contact to stop dd being constantly messed about, knowing he could take me to court. Thinking if he didn't then dd better off without a dad that didn't care at all, if he did then things would be sorted out.

Court ordered cafcass report.

Cafcass officer spent 4 hours with ex and dd but only 40 minutes with dd and I. She swallowed all ex's bullshit hook line and sinker despite me having witnesses and evidence of his poor attitude to contact (turning up drunk/hungover hours late if at all, prepared to drive dd while clearly over the limit, not ensuring dd's basic needs met during contact - food water nappy changes). I ended up appealing the report and was successful in getting it disregarded.

Baconyum glad you managed to get it disregarded. It is supposed to be about the children's rights and needs but they seem to forgotten in so many cases.

Tempted to sign up just to tell notanan to give up! None of them are worth it - some of them need severe mental help and counselling, they're really not well.

I kind of see the reason for that legislation but am that there's no way to fight abusive grandparents. Once again, these situations are so difficult to explain to outsiders. It's revolting.

The cafcass officer was gushing about my ex, talking about his 'gorgeous eyes' ffs! It is supposed to be about the children's rights but divorce law is still woefully one sided. I was shocked to learn I couldn't take him to court on my daughter's behalf at all, basically I couldn't legally stop contact (I took a calculated risk in doing so) but I couldn't make him have contact either.

Our (meaning dd and I's) case was unusual for several reasons. Sadly 13 years later I wish I'd not bothered. Should've just let him gradually disappear then. I did everything I could think of to maintain her contact with her father but still he's now not seen her for over 3 years, doesn't call and has blocked her (yes his own dd) on social media.

*worth the argument I mean (I'm sure they're all worth more psychological care in general)....

There needs to be much more education/training regarding toxic families and emotional abuse for those making decisions for families dealing with it. Unfortunately this may take some time (and much begrudged resources from govt) as emotional and financial abuse has only just been recognised in law and is very difficult to prove.

I've heard several times of CAFCASS officers who fall for the "charming" abuser. You'd think they'd be trained to guard against that, wouldn't you .
Clearly not.

I have a friend who, as a teen, persuaded her mum to resume contact with her own NC father. She didn't understand why her mum was NC, and her mum was reluctant to divulge full details (sensibly). Anyway, after lots of badgering, her mum did contact her own father again - and after a couple of visits, my friend completely understood why her mum had gone NC and wished they could do so again :(

So all those grans over on GN who think the adult grandchildren have an absolute right to know "the truth" and who will find their "loving GPts" and redress the "wrongs", heal the rifts etc. - don't be so sure. They might come to realise exactly why their parents kept them away from the GPts.

Thumb agree with every word of that post

Does anyone have any advice on what to tell an intelligent 7y old about manipulation etc? Will have ground rules In the contact centre eg cannot mention / promise other people, other places, other events without approving first through parents (she only communicates through solicitors that is the problem)

The whole time her solicitors will be being fed everything my children say to her which will be being compiled for future litigation. Even harmless every day comments my dad said about the children to relatives are included in her argument plus people my mother has never met before levered as 'extended family'

How can I explain to the children (other than adults meant to make children feel safe and happy & adults shouldn't make children worry or make children feel sad, unless children are being told off) ? It's so difficult to verbalise. But I need to have their barriers up and it's ideal when the children are young to start

cafcass have over ruled that in giving GP 4h in contact centre

I'm not for a second suggesting you do this in order to find out, but has there been any suggestion as to what would happen if you simply said "no" and didn't turn up? Or what would happen if you moved to another jurisdiction? As the legal fiction claim is that the contact is for the benefit of the child, not the grandparent, what redress would anyone actually have?

The problem is ... if you're the problem then you won't admit it to yourself, let alone others. How could you? It would destroy your mind.

How could you say to yourself and really know it deep down:

"I have not loved X properly. I CANNOT love X properly. I have real problems. I might not be a nice person. This has resulted in these consequences for X. X does not automatically owe me anything because that's not how relationships work. X is better off without me. I will work on improving myself in XYZ ways."

It's so much easier and a basic self-defense mechanism to say:

"OMG. X is insane! X is manipulated by others! X was always a problem! X is a drama queen! Why is she like this? It's her, not me, never me. I hope she gets hers! I'll see to it! I'll get the GC to turn against her too! Then she'll know how I've suffered. Me! Me! Me!"

I'd hope that qualified professionals could see through this stuff but the truth is they fall for it all too. It's awful.

London ... hope someone will come along with good advice soon.

I wonder if it's partly about 'teaching' kids emotional intelligence and how to explore their own feelings and separate out what's fact and fiction.The book 'how to talk so kids can listen' sort of stuff comes to mind.

To some extent you can't help someone put guards up like that until they've been burned; that's the problem with manipulative people. You can probably probe gently some time after the visits to say 'How are you feeling about them' etc.

Could you get some counselling for her? So that it's not just 'you' supporting them or her feeling like talking to you is betraying someone else?

London - I was going to suggest the same as Merd - try and find a counsellor who specialises in children, if you can. I do know a good one but chances of her being in your area is limited, sadly unless your MN nickname is a clue to your whereabouts! If you want to know the details, PM me and I'll pass them on.

Otherwise, go here to see if there is one more local to you. www.childpsychotherapy.org.uk/fat (NB - fat = find a therapist!)

So all those grans over on GN who think the adult grandchildren have an absolute right to know "the truth" and who will find their "loving GPts" and redress the "wrongs", heal the rifts etc. - don't be so sure. They might come to realise exactly why their parents kept them away from the GPts.

I have found this to be true. My older two are adults and have very minimal contact with my EP, mainly through emails and birthday cards. I would prefer them not to, tbh, but they are adults and I'm happy that they're old enough to make that decision for themselves. They are entirely supportive of the fact that I'm NC - in oldest dc's words, "She's batshit, you're well off out of it." My third dc is the one who was constantly passed over and ignored in favour of his siblings, so he's also not remotely bothered to not be in touch.

My youngest would be more ambivalent, and I think would like contact, but I have to make the judgment call that it's not in his interest to stir the whole can of worms up again, because I have zero confidence in my EPs willingness or ability to behave in a civilised way and not resort straight back to the abuse and mindgames as soon as she had a foot back in the door. I view my youngest dc's wish for contact as being in the same territory as for eg. the child of a really bitter divorce who wants his parents to go on holiday together to play happy families - it's really not possible, and even if it were, it would be a terrible idea.

I don't know Ricardian.
It's like parents don't have any rights to protect their children weirdly
My husband and I are married and in agreement
Children said they're scared of her
History of favouritism / manipulation
Cafcass wrote GP is 'hostile and angry towards mother'. But GP has the 'right' to vent on GC in contact centre about it. Great.

I resumed contact with my EGP at 17.

I am now NC with them again. Toxic doesn't begin to describe my entire family.

For so long I wondered if I was the crazy one...but having a stable relationship and parenting my own children has confirmed that no, I am not crazy. I am the only normal one out of around 30 people.

So yeah, I wouldn't be so sure that the GC will "side" with the GPs. Often, the NC happens as a result of teaching the children healthy boundaries...so when they are faced with toxic people again they are able to see the unhealthy behvaiour for what it is.

(I don't know how I have turned out the way I have, quite frankly. I had no frame of reference of "normal" at all.)

London your posts make my blood run cold and I am so sorry that this is happening to you.

I don't find it chilling actually. I think if any of my children ever decided I was toxic and wanted to go NC with me, they could at least do me the courtesy of telling me exactly what my alleged crimes were as I would genuinely have no idea. I think the woman who wrote that post feels the same.

In fact Irely don't understand why someone wouldn't want to tell a parent why they were so awful that going NC was deemed necessary. It's like if your long term partner left out of the blue, you'd want to know what you'd done or how they felt to cause it, wouldn't you?

It is almost NEVER just waking up one day and finding people gone. That would be weird!

Explaining doesn't help (have you read the posts above? This isn't "you left the cups on the side", this is "basic incompatibility as people").

My DH wrote letters into 100s of words explaining laboriously. His dad called him insane and even now refuses to acknowledge anything, sends sad emails now and then but has never engaged. Most abusers don't.