Not financial abuse, but not quite right either?

[errrnotsure]

I'm starting to feel increasingly uncomfortable about the financial balance in my relationship. Came to a head in a heated converation with my DH last night and i was very upset, but after sleeping on it, i decided to get the advice of mumsnet, and try to look at it all in a more rational light. Please be honest with me.

Background - I'm a sahm. DH works in a well paid professional role. I've been a sahm since DC1 was born and we've since had DC2, both are pre-schoolers ATM. Before we got married we had discussed having a family, and i had always made my position clear that if financially possible i would like one or both of us to be at home with them in the early years at least until school age. My DH was on board with this (or so i thought) and luckily when I had DC1 we were in a position for it to be feasible for me to SAH.

Prior to me leaving my job at that point we were both earning approx similar salaries and contributed 50/50 to a joint pot for all joint outgoings. Anything left over was our own disposable income.

Since I've been at home, I manage the joint account, into which DH puts enough money each month to cover all necessary expenses - mortgage, food, bills etc. In my personal account i receive Child Benefit (which i use for kids clothes and activities etc) and £100 a month from DH for myself. This was intended so that i had a bit of money to buy coffees, clothes etc without having to ask DH for it all the time. I was happy with this. If i ever need extra for something big, i just ask and he transfers it to me via bacs. In the past 4 years Dh's salary has nearly doubled, he has been promoted and done really well. I have been pleased and proud of him.

A recent pay rise made me realise that we would no longer be entitled to claim Child Benefit, so i sat down with him to discuss finances, and my idea was to combine everything into both names, with us continuing to use the joint acct for joint expenditure, to make our savings joint too. Currently all ours are in his name - apart from the kids savings which are in mine, but obviously i don't touch them. We would keep our personal accounts for disposable income and we would place an equal pre-arranged amount each month into them. I feel like this will be fair as currently DH spends about £100 a month on lunches alone. Hes not a spendthrift, but he does obviously have more access to disposable income than i do and he does not have to ask anyone if he needs extra money for anything. Side note - he never says no, and we are generally on the same page about what we spend vs save, it just the principle of who has access IFSWIM?

He's not happy with this idea. He would like to continue as we have been, except he puts the equivalent of the child benefit money into the joint account and i use that.

When pressed by me, it became clear that he is not comfortable with me having total access to all income. I told him i feel financially vulnerable and he cited the fact that we are joint owners of our house. This was a contentious issue when we bought the house (before we were married) as DH put a lot more more money into it than i did because of a parental bereavement which left him with a lump sum inheiritance. I did put some money in, and obviously we got the mortgage based on two salaries, plus i paid into it 50% repayments for nearly two years and contributed to renovations as well.

Summary if you've got this far (sorry). I feel it is a trust issue, i want to feel he trusts me and that we're a team, but he clearly doesn't - at least with money?

Otherwise we have a generally happy marriage, beautiful healthy children and i don't want this issue to overshadow our relationship. I always thought that marriage meant sharing everything, but maybe i'm being unreasonable? If keeping separate personal finances is important to him, should i be okay with that? I have had the benefit of being able to look after my own children for a few years, something lots of people don't get to do. I just feel sad about the whole thing, its really not what i imagined, and i'm not sure if i should just accept it and adjust things accordingly? What happens if he ever gets sick/disabled/older and i end up being the main wage earner? I can't imagine wanting to do things this way if it makes him feel the way i do now.

I'll most likely be back at work next year when my eldest goes to school. I doubt i will catch up with his earnings anytime soon, so now there will be an imbalance for a long time I imagine. Also because he is the much higher earner, i expect my career will continue to take a hit throughout school years.

Should i be asking him to contribute to my pension? Or should i be offering to split the mortgage into joint tennants in common with his original investment ringfenced? I don't know which way is up anymore and i'd like us both to be happy.

Help me navigate this please - i'm not sure what i should do at all?

£100 per month doesn't seem very much at all tbh. When I was a sahm I felt very disenfranchised even though I always had full access to everything - everything was and still is shared, so I can only imagine how you are feeling.

Have you only had one conversation about it? Could it be that you caught him off guard with your well thought through ideas and once he's had time to mull everything over will be more receptive? From what you are saying, and I have no reason to doubt you, he sounds like a good bloke. But this needs to be resolved not least for the practical reasons others have mentioned regarding death/incapacity. But as others have said, you do need to tell him exactly how you are feeling.

I've not read full thread (DC dinner time etc).

Very similar story to yours. Worked up until DC1 arrived. Whilst working our incomes were similar and both well paid so everything was 50/50 and no need to discuss.

Once DC1 arrived and I became SAHM, things changed. Similar to you. No joint account and no money of my own. This went on for 4 long years.

I had several showdowns with DH about it. And it wasn't a case of being short of money.

We did sort it all out and he has finally (7 years later...) understood that my "job" with the DC is a major contribution. And we are sorted. I am on the joint account. Everything is joint.

However we did almost end up divorced over this. He was actually such an arsehole and couldn't comprehend that it wasn't for fun that I had given up my six figure income to wipe the bums of our children but that one of us had to do it and by accident of biology, only I could carry children.

There are still times where he treats me like "the little woman" and it's hard to stop myself throttling him.

All that said, it's all fine and we got there but he had no understand of what it all meant for me.

What you need to explain to your DH is the value of your contribution as a SAHM.
(I only managed to effectively communicate this to DH by leaving very early one morning, 4am, and turning my phone off and he had to deal with DC, house, laundry Guinea pigs etc). He no longer wonders what it is I actually do.

Communicate your valued contribution (x loads of laundry p week, meals cooked, ironing etc etc).

I also put a price tag against all those items (Google will help with current House keeper and nanny prices). With all additional services he enjoyed (dry cleaning picked up, shoes done, shopping done etc etc).

I was basically able to show him that without me, he wouldn't be able to afford to pay for all these services individually (which also meant showing him he needed to pull his weight at weekends).

I hated the intransigence DH showed by refusing to acknowledge or initially comprehend the value of what I do.

I think your first step is to show him what you're supplying him with in terms of services.

And if that doesn't ring a bell with him. Get up super early and leave. Turn you phone off and don't go back pref for about 24 hours.

It took DH about 4.5 hours to start begging for mercy . I waited full 12 before going home after a day of coffee shops and museums.
Rambling and long. Sorry.

It's not about trust, it's about the fact that he values himself more highly than you do.

Personally I've never been a fan of joint accounts so I won't have one.

We calculate household outgoings and household income and divide up the bills and income so the disposable amount in our current accounts is about equal.

He likes to spend each month, I like to save and then periodic spend a lump sum. Having seperate current accounts with equal disposable income means we never have to ask if it's OK to make a purchase.

We never argue about money and if the shit hit the fan and things went tits up tomorrow, I would not be tied to him and we could easily seperate.

I can't understand how it would be possible in a marriage where both partners valued each other equally, for one to have more money than the other?

I'd call his bluff if he won't play fair and tell him you need to go back to work and therefore overtime is off the cards for him and he will need to do his share of childcare/pick ups/drop offs/clubs and payout for additional childcare costs.

Also explain that it's your turn to be able to put 100% into your career without thought for the household and therefore you will work whatever hours necessary to make up for the X years you've already sacrificed for him and the kids to catch up.

That should rattle him (but only works if you mean it do you need to get to that stage first).

Keep the CB and he can repay it via his tax return. How young are your dc?

If I were you I would start looking to go back to work. He's not fully supportive of you being a SAHM anymore.

If I were you I would start looking to go back to work. He's not fully supportive of you being a SAHM anymore

That might not be true if he is held responsible for half the household/child raising responsibilities at the expense of his own career. His mind might suddenly be changed back again and equality might be gained.

What jumps out at me is there must be some transactions through his bank account that he doesn't want you to see. As he transfers cash to you currently, you really have no idea of what he spends where, how much etc.
he could be withdrawing x amount a month into a savings account you know nothing about, online gambling, after work trips to a strip club, keeping a mistress etc etc, the possibilities are literally endless.
He sounds like he's panicking because
If you had access, full and clear transparency in regards to money in the account I'll bet my last pound you'd find something you didn't like.

YY Joysmum And part of his wage would also go towards childcare.

It's important, until your kids are 12, to continue to claim child benefit: details here as it maintains your NI contributions (at least for pensions).

We made the mistake of not transferring the child benefit to dh when he was made redundant and was then a SAHP/student/setting up a business for a few years and I was the one earning ft. It means that he has a 9 years gap in his record which could've been avoided.

Not entirely true pretty bird. As long as you register for CB , whether you opt out or receive payments, the ni record is maintained.

Sorry - had to do kids dinner and bedtime. Will try and address everything:

attila we both make the major decisions about car purchases, house stuff, holidays etc. We do talk a lot and like i said we're pretty much on the same page about our spending priorities as a family.

Fern I have spoken to him about how i feel, we've had this conversation about finances twice. Both times, I've been left feeling very upset and nothing has been resolved.

snowman we have mirror wills and i am the beneficiary to his pension, death in service, and the aforementioned house is in joint names. Would all his current accounts be frozen on his death even though i am the sole beneficiary of his will so its all quite straightforward? This is something that i can talk to him about because there is no way he would want me and the kids to be without funds in that sort of situation.

Crabbit - i like the term 'Operational Director' I might use that one with the kids!
That is a big concern for me too. I want my kids to grow up respecting me, and see me and their father as equals. Realistically they prob won't even remember this time with me at home as i'll be back to work before they're old enough to remember much. However, i'm conscious that i'm now going to be the lower earner so its really crucial that they see us on an equal footing in all things at home, money, household tasks etc...

Furious it sounds like we're in exactly the same situation! I'll have been out of the workplace for nearly 5 years when i go back, which feels like a lifetime.
Its crazy how much those 5 years, which are nothing really in the context of an entire career, will have set me back in terms of earning power and promotion opportunities. I'm trying to think positive and am also considering doing some retraining, but its scary to think how much i will have slid down the ladder, and how hard i'll have to work, just to get back to where i was when i left.

Franke i think he does need time to think things over, but its not the first time we've had this conversation so i'm not sure hes going to change his mind really. Disenfranchised is the perfect word for how i feel. Which is strange because the last few years have been the hardest, most tiring, stressful, challenging (and joyous of course) years of my life, and yet i feel less empowered than at any point prior to this.

MrsFlorrick thank you for sharing your story. It sounds really similar actually. I worry that although i think we'll get through this, that i'll never really forgive him for not being as supportive as he could be at possibly the most vulnerable time of my life when i really need him to look after me so i can look after our babies. Prob a bit dramatic, but i don;t want to harbour resentment towards him if i can help it.
Re: leaving him to get on with it. I have done several times. I've been away with friends for the weekend a couple of times and i try to go out with friends semi regularly, so we do have equal leisure time in that sense. I know it sound glib, but he is a great dad and is more than capable of looking after his children. Granted he doesn't do the same level of housework and wifework that i do at the same time, but its not something that i feel aggrieved about. He knows how hard it can be to look after two preschoolers all weekend. So does that make it more annoying that he sees this money thing the way he does? I'm not sure.

Joysmum thanks for the advice, i think you may be right about going back to work. Its hard because we do need to kind of prioritise his job now that he is the higher earner, but i will have the conversation with him about him picking up more of the slack when i go back to enable me to progress in my career. TBH, he might be happy about it if i manage to get a decent role with prospects. I suspect he would be happier if i could match his earnings so some of the pressure was off him and he could spend more time with the kids. In practice, whether he would be able to push back on his manager to the extent that most working women with kids have to do, i don't know yet?

LIZS KIds are 3 and 1. Not sure if i should keep CB. He doesn;t currently have to do a tax return, so it would be a massive PITA, also his projected earnings this financial year mean he'd prob have to pay it all back which would then make a dent in our savings.

Genx77 Honestly i don;t think hes trying to hide anything. I could be wrong of course, but the irony is that i do actually trust him 100%.

Pretty i will cancel CB but remain on the register for NI contributions. I think thats how it works - will check it out.

Phew - sorry for the essay but i wanted to respond to all of you. Thank you.

Good advice above on current situation so I won't add to that!

But on your comment about when you go back to work, being the one to be flexible because of children - no.

He is the one that needs to be flexible because he has the established career.

1. It's more fair
2. It's better for you if you ever split
3. It actually makes more long term financial sense for you as a couple

Well if you genuinely dont believe he has anything to hide from you then there must be another reason he does not want to share complete financial clarity with you.
The only other obvious conclusion to jump to is that he sees his incoming salary as 'his' money, rather than 'family' money, and as such he doesn't want you having full access to it, hence him being happy to 'give' you more money but not happy to allow you access to mo eg of your own accord, as and when you need it. He is treating you as an employee, with bonuses if you kick up enough of a stink.
This will only serve to sully your memories of this time at home with your children, he isn't supporting you, and I don't just mean financially.
What reasons has he given for refusing to discuss or act upon your wishes?
We can all only compare your circumstances to our own.
For reference, I'm a sahm, 2 children. Jointly owned home, one joint account where DH salary is paid in, second joint account, where money is placed to pay all bills. No seperate accounts each, fully joint savings portfolio etc. I buy what I like, when I like, I do not and NEVER would 'ask' my husband for money. I'm not a spendthrift, I'm sensible and savvy, more so than DH.

Thanks Cabrinha, I agree totally. But i think what will actually happen is that he will want to outsource the problem. The crux is that we have differing views on whats the 'norm'.

I grew up with a SAHM. We moved around a lot for my dads job and so it made sense for my DM to be at home with us, settling us into new schools etc. My DH grew up with two working parents and a full time nanny. If i asked him to be flexible and it clashed with his career i expect he will want us to look at options for nannys/extra childcare which i definitely don't want, so i will end up doing it.
I know the children will have to go to childminders/nursery when i go back to work, but i don't want them to have a nanny or au pair 7-7 while we come home past dinner time every night and miss all school plays/sports days etc. I believe itspossible for us to work as a team and be flexible to help each other's careers and hopefully both get time with the kids. If we hit difficulties, rather than renegotiating hours with work, I think he will start talking about nannys and roping in his DM (who is not at all capable of looking after two small children) to help after hours. I want my kids to see either one of us at the beginning and end of the day and not just at weekends. No offence to people who do have those intense work schedules, i just don;t want it for my family. I don't think he 'gets' this as his attitude is 'never did me any harm'.

Well it obviously did do him harm as he sees you like an employee.

I think you're fighting a losing battle, the more you write the more it sounds like he simply does not see any worth in you staying at home. He neither values your input or places any value on it. He wants you back at work and contributing financially. Hence all your musings on nannies, au pairs etc. maybe withholding finances is his way of saying 'you haven't earned this money so you're not having full access to it'
Either way you're walking into a shitstorm and there's no point burying your head in the sand, you need to thrash this out however much he sounds like he's trying to avoid it.

Genx77

I think it is that he still sees it as his money that he is just sharing with me. I'm not sure he is thinking of it as family money. But i don't think he sees it as a problem because he will happily give me whatever i need, and therefore can't understand why i'm upset about the issue of access.

In our conversation last night he referenced my need to control things. This is true, i do like to have control in most areas of life, but not in a abusive way, he means, just that i like to plan and know whats happening, i don't like surprise etc. Therefore he just sees it a s a bit of a foible and that i should almost just relax a bit and let go of the need to 'control' everything because hey we have enough money and within reason i can have what i want so why worry?

I said the same Helena.

Either way you're walking into a shitstorm and there's no point burying your head in the sand, you need to thrash this out however much he sounds like he's trying to avoid it.

I agree

He sounds like the controlling one err, he makes you go begging when you need cash rather than letting you just have access to it, when it is right there, sitting in the bank. He mulls over your request then decides whether or not he will grant it, it's demeaning, disrespectful and overshadows any of his redeeming features.

What gets me most is he KNOWS his much this means to you but still refuses to do anything about it. It's now not about money, it's about behaving in a deliberate way that he knows is making you feel upset and unsupported, then telling you that you have control issues when you mention it.

Do you have properly calculated life-insurance? I think this was the turning point for my dh. He assumed that as I would need an income equivalent to his salary to 'replace' him and maintain our lifestyle, he would need the same to 'replace' me. He was quite shocked to discover that he would need about double his salary.

I was in the exact situation - not a massive spending husband but he did go out about twice a week with work/friends.

I once said why do you have a better car than me? He said 'because I earn't it'!

When the kids went to school he said he now expects me to support myself. Again did have a good job prior to children but had to go back into crappy demeaning jobs which did not seem fair considering I too am a graduate who once had a good job.

No benefits either as, he the same doubled his salary. It was also complicated with health problems with myself and the kids.

I have now worked my way up to a well
Paid job ( much older kids so no child care). It's all gone a bit strange as due to the fact I always had my own account ( with no money in it) I now have money to spend but don't want to share with him. I cannot get past how he treated me when vunerable and now become toxic?! In progress ...

I would never advice my dd to become ASAHM now. There should be a health warning on it!