Sinister BIL

[Charone]

DM called me last night. She'd just got back from a visit to Dsis and it hadn't gone that well.
The problem is BIL. It is never comfortable in his company. When any of us visit, he stands at the doorway of whichever room we are in, leaning against the wall and glaring / scowling / looking thoroughly irritated to have one of us in his company, or worse under his roof.
He behaves slightly better when Dsis is in the room, but when she isn't, he gets worse. This time what happened was he refused to allow DM to have any food when everyone was gathered at the table for dinner. He just wouldn't serve her, even though he served everyone else (the children and himself) and he placed all the dishes out her reach. Without describing it all blow by blow, he basically went out of his way to humiliate DM in front of her grandchildren.
What is bothering me is that this isn't the first story like this DM has told me. She has felt intimidated by him before (e.g. the worst time was when he pushed his face up against hers and snarled at her).
I completely believe her.

It puts us off visiting Dsis. I haven't been in her home for three years, so i haven't seen her children in all that time (and she has seen mine). Every time, i think it would be nice to see her, I picture being in BIL's company for days (even 10 minutes is uncomfortable) and so I put it off for another six months. (However, I have about 30 years of experiences with him so I do know him).

Since DM called, i've been thinking about why he would behave the way he does. It was clear he wanted to cut Dsis off from her family as soon as they got married and bit, by bit, he's cut the interaction down to just the odd phone call. However, it seems to have stepped up again and I was trying to think why. Then it hit me: DM is getting old and frail. She's a widow. Soon she will need some support. Dsis would be the more obvious candidate to give this. So BIL is making sure DM doesn't want to move nearer to her DD.
That's just my theory.
Anyone?

[Mouseinahole]

How old is your mum please?

[Charone]

she's in her mid 70s

[Charone]

but with mobility issues and generally failing health.

[SpringTown46]

Are you certain that your Mum's account of this is real?

[Charone]

Yes because she describes it with facts. What they were eating, where each person was seated, what she said, what BIL did first. What he did when she asked to be passed the serving dish. The head down stuff describes her perfectly. I can really visualise that as I've seen it many times.

[wizzywig]

Sorry but how do you know its not him thats being EA'd? From what youve said she pulls him up on his behaviour, earns more, is educationally more qualified than him. Maybe he is so unhappy that he isnt comfortable with his inlaws and its his only opportunity to show what he thinks of his wife and her family.

[Greengagesummer]

You mention that your mother is mid 70's, mobility issues and failing health. Also that you need to outwardly get along with your sister enough to consider your DM's long term living arrangements. Have you considered power of attorney? I hesitate to mention it, as with your sister's golden child status, your Mum might get her to sign it, bit if you or you & your Db, could have POA, health & financial, you would be in a position to look out for your DM's best interests, without ripping her off emotionally or financially. It's worth reading up on. Should really be put in place with frank discussions about what she would like in various different scenarios, which I cannot see happening with your sister.

[SanityClause]

While that is a possibility, wizziwig, it is no excuse to treat an elderly and frail woman in the way he is described as doing.

If he is being abused by his wife, he is effectively using his frail MIL as a human shield, when she is there, to avoid being the scapegoat this time. Nice.

[Chocolatteaddict1]

Massive drip feeding op

[Charone]

yes, sorry, Chocolatteaddict1. I didn't think the issues were linked in my OP, and I wasn't planning to have to explain all the reasons I am reluctant to go to Dsis's house.

[MarthasHarbour]

I really dont know OP, and i know i am making a massive leap by saying it but can you not see that the children are affected by this behaviour, it is a little more than 'not liking the parents'. Pick up the phone, talk to them, tell them what you have told us. Ask for advice, anything. SS is not just for physically abused children.

I am almost sorry i opened this thread, as i am really concerned for these children. The thought of them sitting heads bowed whilst their dad bullied their GM. It doesn't bear thinking about. And you appear to me to have brushed off the concern for the children. I am not being deliberately goady - that is how i read it.

I realise that you have only just pieced this all together and you need time to reflect.

[MarianneSolong]

My own impression is that Social Services workers dealing with child protection are struggling under a huge weight of referrals. Many of these will involve parents who are struggling with drug addiction and/or learning difficulties - where there is a high degree of physical neglect. Others will involve children who are deemed to be at risk of sexual abuse.

So this means that an allegation of inappropriate behaviour (elder abuse) by parents - even if it is wildly inappropriate - is pretty low down on the radar of workers whose brief is child protection.

Having said that teachers are under a duty to report children when there is a safeguarding concern. And as they see children every day and can note changes in terms of health and wellbeing, So they are in a much stronger position to flag up any concerns than a family member whose not seen nieces and nephews, who hasn't seen the troubling incident in question, and will have no support from the people who actually were there.

[MarthasHarbour]

Fair point Marianne - i know i am grasping at straws here. I would just like to think that someone is looking out for them. I have no experience of child protection services.

OP says that they may be different now. Her DM said they sat there saying nothing which to me indicates that they are still on 'flat earth' (OPs words)

[Charone]

I am not sweeping it aside. Honestly. I am fairly appalled to realise that I know any child, never mind my own blood relatives, are living in an abusive household. I know what that’s like and I know how it stays inside you as an adult so my empathy is huge. But so is my sense of powerlessness.
I can picture the family and I can imagine how easily they would deal with the knock at the door from SS. Once the door had closed again and SS have been convinced that there is no truth whatsoever to my allegations, then they’d be outraged, of course. They’d want to know who would have said such a thing. But then, I’d feel exactly the same way. (Wouldn’t anyone?)
I just don’t know what would happen next. I am certain that Dsis could handle social services with no difficulty whatsoever, so no good would come of it. However, suppose one of them worked out who made the report? Or even what if they got it wrong and thought DM was behind it?

PS I seriously doubt BIL is being emotionally abused! There's too much that he does that fits the profile of sociopath that has nothing to do with my family but is to do with other people he knows for his behaviour to be explained by a reaction to EA.

[TheBouquets]

It is a really difficult situation for you and given that SS are working through backlogs of child protection issues and don't have much time for elder abuse issues I don't know where you could go with this.
The only wise thing to do would to try to talk DM out of going to visit and especially staying in the DSis and awful BIL household. They are a very weird couple and an older not in the best of health woman on her own does not need this in her life.
Good luck with this

[MarthasHarbour]

Fair enough OP I understand your point. I have overstepped the mark. I apologise.

I am clutching at straws i suppose.

[Charone]

MarthasHarbour- don't say that. You are right. Its just I think the chances of success would be extremely low and the risk of making the a lot situation worse would be very high.

[MarthasHarbour]

[sulalovesbing]

If he's prepared to do that to your mum, just think what he's doing to your sister behind closed doors. You're not really that naive are you?

[mix56]

I don't know if you said how old they were. but could your invite the CHILDREN, for a cousin w/e ? (you'd have to find a reason why the parents can't come !)
Not that you could necessarily fathom out if they are unhappy...
are they old enough for a train trip to you ?

[candykane25]

This is what I think about the children. One of two things will happen. They will absorb the value system of their parents and turn out just like them. Or they will hate the value system of their parents and be the exact opposite.
I think, as they get older, if you have the opportunity, let them know that you are always there for them and they are always welcome at your house.
With regards to family dynamics, I am the gobby one in our family who points out the problem, calls everyone's attention to it. It doesn't make you popular with the ones who want to minimise stuff. I am called the trouble maker as though that is a bad thing.
My view is that I am honest and call out bad shit, but also call myself out on my own bad shit too. I am not perfect and I make mistakes.
I get naffed off with other people refusal to take responsibility and refusal to see others point of view.
This causes conflict with the head in sand, brush it under the carpet brigade.
The two value systems are never going to co-exist peacefully. So best kept apart.
Your DM is one kind of person with you and another kind of person with your Dsis. I would leave her to it.

[springydaffs]

Someone please tell me that I am not the only one with a complicated family.

Yes, I do. Though 'complicated' is a mild way to put it tbf

It's painful reading your posts, that's how much I relate to the unbelievably poisonous mess that is your, and my, family. I am NC with my family (Joy To The World) except my aged parents. It would take too long to explain the kind of things that go down, and went down, with my family. I am lost for words anyway - where to begin? The whole family is so severely disordered it takes your breath away. But no-one would know from the outside - all successful people, living in very good homes, good careers; respected and liked far and wide.

Anyway, ime I have had to let my neices/nephews go (that hurt bcs I loved them very much). They are too up to their necks in their impossibly seductive/putrid family systems - plus it became quite clear their parents had given them an ultimatum. They are well grown now and perhaps, one day, they will recognise something of the choices I have made re the family - who knows? If so I hope it is a comfort to them because if they come against the family machine they'll be crushed to death for doing so, no doubt.

You can't beat this stuff, or reason with it. You just have to get out imo.

[springydaffs]

That weekend away when your sis 'turned' your mum - your mum was ripe for turning. imo no resolving sticks (eg you and your mum): we have our roles and they never change. Set in concrete. It may look like they're changing but the force is too strong, change skin deep and temporary.

ime I have run the gamut of 'blaming' her, or him - or, no wait, it's HIM/HER and has been all along! No, it's all of them. En masse. Is it your BIL? Or your sister? Or both? Or your mum? Or great aunt Flo, uncle Henry and Grandfather John? It's all of them!