Sinister BIL

[Charone]

DM called me last night. She'd just got back from a visit to Dsis and it hadn't gone that well.
The problem is BIL. It is never comfortable in his company. When any of us visit, he stands at the doorway of whichever room we are in, leaning against the wall and glaring / scowling / looking thoroughly irritated to have one of us in his company, or worse under his roof.
He behaves slightly better when Dsis is in the room, but when she isn't, he gets worse. This time what happened was he refused to allow DM to have any food when everyone was gathered at the table for dinner. He just wouldn't serve her, even though he served everyone else (the children and himself) and he placed all the dishes out her reach. Without describing it all blow by blow, he basically went out of his way to humiliate DM in front of her grandchildren.
What is bothering me is that this isn't the first story like this DM has told me. She has felt intimidated by him before (e.g. the worst time was when he pushed his face up against hers and snarled at her).
I completely believe her.

It puts us off visiting Dsis. I haven't been in her home for three years, so i haven't seen her children in all that time (and she has seen mine). Every time, i think it would be nice to see her, I picture being in BIL's company for days (even 10 minutes is uncomfortable) and so I put it off for another six months. (However, I have about 30 years of experiences with him so I do know him).

Since DM called, i've been thinking about why he would behave the way he does. It was clear he wanted to cut Dsis off from her family as soon as they got married and bit, by bit, he's cut the interaction down to just the odd phone call. However, it seems to have stepped up again and I was trying to think why. Then it hit me: DM is getting old and frail. She's a widow. Soon she will need some support. Dsis would be the more obvious candidate to give this. So BIL is making sure DM doesn't want to move nearer to her DD.
That's just my theory.
Anyone?

[CockacidalManiac]

Did you mention that you had a brother?

[Charone]

CockacidalManiac Yes, I mentioned my brother in one of the early posts. I've looked it up for you: Tue 29-Mar-16 08:56:20

springydaffs - yes, Mum has a favourite (Dsis) and a family blacksheep (me) and all the other trappings of our own abusive family that I could write about at length in the stately homes thread. DM is far from perfect. She had a horrible childhood and trailed it along behind her when she became a mother herself. We got something much better than she had, but it still wasn't ok.

DB agrees 100% with me about our childhood because he got one of the bad roles too. Both of us have made it our mission not to mistreat our children. Dsis, on the other hand, being the golden child, denies it completely and aggressively and I don't know what kind of mother she makes (I genuinely don't have a clue). This is another reason (along with distance and her DH) that makes me not eager to be with Dsis. We get on ok, except when she drags out the blacksheep stuff which I find hurtful.
If you grew up in a dysfunctional family, it makes variations from normal harder to spot (I find), and I think that's what is going on with Dsis and BIL.

To be honest, I feel like I am drip feeding again and I don't want to do that. Our family is very imperfect, but DM is old and becoming vulnerable and BIL's behaviour to her is worrying me.

[Charone]

Yes, DM stays overnight with Dsis when she goes to visit her.

[Charone]

I name changed for this thread, and having revealed so much that i didn't intend to in the OP, I am extremely glad about that!

[curren]

I am in a similar situation.

Sil lives round the corner from my mum and dad and is awful to my mum. Low level things like offering to make a drink for everyone else and not my mum. Up to huge things like telling mum she can't spend time with me unless she is present and kicking off if she finds out we have been shopping or had coffee for example.

She doesn't isolate dbro as they rely heavily on mum for childcare. But if mum says no to her she will then tell mum she can't have the kids. A few weeks ago sil wanted mum to take dbro to the doctors (gave an hours notice) because he was too ill to drive and she wanted to go visit her mum. My mum told her she couldn't as she had an appointment she couldn't cancel. Sil then said 'right well you can't have Ds tomorrow' . Sil is a sahm so they don't 'need' childcare. Mum just does it to help out and give her a break. Sil the. Wouldn't let her visit for the next week.

Sil never does it in front of me as I pull her up on it. So does my dad to some extent. But mum is so terrified she will end up losing dbro and the grandkids, that she puts up with a lot. Although she has started speaking up a bit.

I haven't approached dbro about it. Because tbh, he has a very selfish streak and even at 40 he tantrums when he doesn't get his own way. Personally I think he approves of his wife acting the way she does. He is manipulative too and is quite happy for Sil to try and manipulate mum and dad.

I sometimes wonder wether he puts up with it for a quiet life as Sil does take it out on him if she doesn't get her own way. She will piss and moan until he calls mum and dad and tries to get them to do as she wants. If that doesn't work it ends up with him shouting at them. Which makes me think he is desperate for his wife to get her own way.

But most of the time, I am convinced he quite likes her asserting her power over my mum and actively supports it. She hates me because I don't bend to it.

Op where do you think your sister is? Does she like that he is a twat? Could she be being abused?

Only you know her. The fact that she didn't say anything when she saw your mums dinner in the table means she is either terrified of him or she is as bad as he is.

[mix56]

The worst part is the kids just sat there, when the husband dolloped Granny's portion on the table, no one moved, no one spoke, no one tittered.
They all presumably looked down like Granny.
Turns my blood to ice

[Charone]

curren - its awful, isn't it? You'd feel like suggesting your DM get caller display and simply refuse to answer the phone to SIL (or your DB). If she had decades left to play with, she could just call SIL's bluff. It would probably work out as it sounds like SIL needs your DM. However, I know that when you are old, the world looks different than when you are young and your life is very much ahead of you.

I don't know what is going on in my sister's head. She gives very few clues about anything really. She is one of those people who wouldn't tell you that its raining outside unless she felt it was in her interests to reveal the info.

Looking back BIL has sometimes been a clue as to how Dsis feels about someone. He has always treated DB like he is not worth giving the time of day because Dsis never had much respect for DB. However, I've had periods when I mattered to Dsis (though not for a long time now) and during those periods, DB was ok with me, sometimes even friendly.

Actually , thinking about it, something has been happening over the last few years that might explain things. DM and I reached an understanding about how she'd treated me. We made a step to sorting out our relationship and it has resulted in a much improved relationship. In fact, DB phoned me once and told me I was the new favourite. (It didn't last, of course, but it was a bit of a novelty for the couple of months that it did last.) DB and I laughed about it.
However, Dsis was less than amused, I realised later. I don't think i spoke to her about it, and I don't think she and DB are really in contact at all, so she must have worked it out from how mum spoke about me.
Last year, Dsis joined me and mum on a weekend away. She asked to come and it was the first time it had just been the three of us alone for at least 20 years. It was fine the first night, but by the end, Dsis had managed to get mum back to making jibes at me again. The first time she did something, I spoke to her alone afterwards and pointed out what she'd done. I couldn't understand why she'd want to provoke mum into making digs at me when finally there was peace between us. I thought she'd done it by accident. However, Dsis just got more and more blatant and mum took the bait every time. By the time I came home, DM and I had fallen out and I was sobbing. I cried for days afterwards. It happened so abruptly that it was easy to see that Dsis had deliberately engineered it.
So, maybe that's what BIL is up to? He knows Dsis is upset at DM for briefly removing Dsis's favourite status and so he's taking revenge on DM??

if that's right, then they truly are an absolutely horrid pair.

[Charone]

That's what it is! The moving near them to be looked after thing is a red herring. DM won't do that, so BIL has nothing to fear.

However, you could always find out where you stood with Dsis by the way BIL was treating you. So right now, Dsis must be unhappy with DM, but keeping her feelings hidden, as usual.

[Charone]

Someone please tell me that I am not the only one with a complicated family.

[curren]

I don't tell my mum took anything. She won't cut dbro off. But she is handling it better. But only since she has started speaking up at the time and drawing attention to it. But it doesn't sound like your mum feels she could do that.


If your sister engineered a situation where you and your mum fell out (my dbro and sil has tried this but I asked them why in front of mum and dad and that out an end to it) then that would suggest she isn't abused but is the same sort of person BIL is and enjoys your mum being put in her place.

It could be that brig around BIL has brought that side out in her more.

From what you have said it sounds like their relationship is based on something quite sinister.

What worries me is that the kids, are going along with it too. The impact on them will be huge.

[candykane25]

It's not just you.
Can absolutely relate to you.
The common enemy thing is what drives them.
I've been in the receiving end of this and totally get it.
Let them live their twisted lives and keep out of it.
Dynamics in families are weird.

[Sunshowercap]

This sounds like domestic violence. You have to keep faith with your sister - if your mother doesn't feel safe, then she shouldn't visit on her own, but can you? Keep in touch - don't blame her or hold her responsible for her husband's abusive behaviour.

Part of the way DV works - particularly what's now been called "coercive control" and is as illegal as physical violence - is cutting off the woman from her family and friends. And if she's a "strong woman" then it looks as though she's OK about that.

I've been listening to "The Archers" (BBC$ Radio soap opera) which has shown just this siort of situation with the characters Rob & Helen (just go to the Archers thread on MN to catch up). It's almost too horrible to listen to, but it sounds very much like your sister's situation. The [apparently] loving husband making threats of violence in word and deed in a voice & expressed in a way that makes him sound caring - but really he's cutting her off from anyone but him.

She needs you there for when she finally breaks free. Good luck.

[MarthasHarbour]

ThatsNotMyRabbit Tue 29-Mar-16 17:49:50
I'm upset by the image of your DM sitting there quietly, head down, eating a dinner that had been thrown at her. And I don't know her.

Me too Rabbit. But those that sadden me most in this situation is the children. I would go all out and call Social Services, i know this is trotted out a lot on here and judged in some scenarios but i would do it, just to talk and get some advice if anything.

[TealLove]

Forgive me but you don't sound like a close family. It seems like it has been easier to push things under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen. That happens in families it's hard and painful to face the truth.
All I can say is what he did to your DM at the dinner table is one of the most horrific things I have read on MN and ive been here 10 years.
He threw her food to her like a Dog and no one said anything. Seriously in my family if my DH did that 10 plates would have been flown at his head. We would have been talking about it for 20 years. She is elderly and deserves respect what on earth was everyone around thinking. It's a horrific thing to do!

[candykane25]

If the Dsis is complicit, she's not going to break free.
And it's not possible to be close if one member doesn't want to prioritise that.

[SanityClause]

If you walked into a room where a guest in your house was scraping their food off the table onto a plate, you'd get them a new plate of food. Even if you thought they had tipped it over themselves. You'd give them your own plate of food, if there were none left, and have a sandwich yourself.

I agree that your sister is colluding with your BIL in his treatment of your DM. You say she doesn't fear telling him off? So, why would she not have done so, this time?

Your sister is a nasty piece of work.

There may be no point in talking to your DM about this. If SIL is the golden child, she may just not want to hear it. It may be worth trying to sow some seeds of doubt. "How could [sistersname] just stand there and let that happen?" No need to point out what your BIL is doing is wrong - she knows that. Perhaps subtly try to get your DM to question why your SIL is doing nothing about it.

I think it's probably a waste of time, though.

If I were you, I'd stay away from your sister as much as feasibly possible. I don't think you can fix this for your DM, and sounds like she is only there twice or three times a year, anyway. It is hurtful for her, but she is choosing it.

[CloneMeNow]

It sounds like your DM has been emotionally abusive to you throughout your childhood OP - and your sister has become (possibly as a result of childhood) an expert emotional manipulator. She has married another emotional abuser. I would be very worried indeed about their children, but I don't think there is much you can do about it (I don't say this lightly).

[Charone]

Dsis's children aren't like any other children I know. They are sort of closed off, self-contained. Its not shyness though. They say really rude and obnoxious things and their parent's don't pull them up for it. Visiting their home, for me, is like attending a meeting of the flat earth society. I don't have the same trouble anywhere else and I am used to being around children so i know they vary a lot.
I would think its difficult growing up with parents like theirs. Or then again maybe Dsis is a wonderful mother - she always said she'd make a better mother than me when we were growing up together.

Its been three years though, so it is very likely that they are completely different now.

[Charone]

Yes, DM was emotionally and physically abusive to all of us, but especially me. Dsis always blamed the person who had caught mum's ire for causing trouble. She used to roll her eyes and use pained expressions, even if she'd seen one of being hit a few moments earlier.
I grew up with the firm belief that she hated anything or anyone that started an argument and that she was always clear that the blame lay with whomever mum was angry with.
That's why I was really shocked last year when Dsis asked to join us that weekend and then went about deliberately causing trouble. I thought she'd just made a mistake the first time she set mum off at me, and I took her aside and asked her to be more careful. However, by the end of the weekend there was no way it couldn't have been deliberate. It was really blatant but mum was so worked up that she wasn't being rational and she was just shouting at me (for a comment my sister had made).

[blindsider]

Why is it you want a relationship with your sister? - her and her husband sound like they deserve each other.

[Charone]

I am reminded how Dsis is. I have not seen her since that weekend. I won't be able to change anything or help DM. If I go with DM to visit Dsis, I'll just be the one who gets attacked instead. I don't have the strength to face that.

DB has no sway with Dsis either. So, DM will have to fend for herself. She'd be better not going to Dsis's but that's her decision.
I am sorry but there really is nothing I can do.

[mummytime]

The DC are probably abused at least emotionally. But to be honest I don't think there is much you can do.

However with your mother there are things you can do.
First consider where she would like to live (as in town). Then look at options for sheltered (and possibly later nursing home care). My FIL has a great set up where he is in a sheltered housing flat, but next door is an nursing home and he can go there when unwell or if he becomes frailer.
Second try to get your mother toget some counselling, if she's old enough Age concern might be able to help.
Third realise what is happening to her is elder abuse.
Fourth the DC might quite like someone visiting as it will remove the focus from them. Of course they daren'tspeak out or that will draw attention back to them.

[MarthasHarbour]

I am sorry i mentioned SS earlier OP but i am really really concerned for these children. If they are emotionally closed off and 'flat' then they are already seriously affected by both their parents' behaviour.

[Charone]

blindsider - I am not sure i do. We need to be able to cooperate as DM will need care solutions in place in the coming years, so it makes sense to be on speaking terms. Also, we were close until she started going out with BIL. Its a long time ago but we were close for a long time. We even shared a bedroom for most of our childhood. Letting go completely is hard but this very distant and infrequent relationship feels about right for me.

[Charone]

MarthasHarbour - and say what to SS? I don't like the parents, especially BIL. he always glares at me and makes passive-aggressive comments. I haven't seen the DC for 3 years but the more I think about it, the more I realise that the Dc probably have it tough?