Concerned about future of DNiece

[susannahscoffs]

Posting this just to get a bit of perspective, really, and see what others think...sorry it's so long but thought background would be helpful.

My brother's partner (well, ex-partner now) told DB at the New Year that she was leaving him after nearly 3 years together, in which time they have had a baby - the pregnancy was unplanned - who is now 20 months, my DNiece.
There is a 16 year age difference, she is now in her early 20s. She stopped working when pg and then was a SAHM. He is self employed and has 2 businsses, works 6/7 days a week.

They argued a lot, at the beginning it was mainly because he'd nag/criticise her about things like smoking while pregnant and BF which he felt strongly about,and not studying to get her qualifications, having dropped out of school.
I can understand how this would have got her down... But she's now saying that him urging her to get some qualifications with a view to getting a career was "manipulation" - it wasn't intended to be, he genuinely wanted her to get an education and reach her full potential - and that he destroyed her and is responsible for her depression and extreme weight loss (though she's been on a crash diet and posts constant selfies looking whippet thin and glamorous)

Although she'd been saying she was unhappy for several months, he hadn't taken her very seriously (he's not very emotionally intelligent when it comes to relationships), kept trying to appease her by giving her lots of time alone, girls' nights out etc, trips back to her home country without him and the baby.

While I think he too was unhappy and realised they weren't a great match, he took the news of her leaving pretty badly, since it meant failure of the relationship, and he wanted them to stay together and try to be a family.

When she announced she wanted to move out, she asked him to help her out financially in addition to child maintenance, since living in London is £££ - she had started working in November earning a fairly low wage, not earning much more than the babysitter she hired, but had been adamant she wanted to work rather than do a course to get qualifications - I realise now she wanted financial independence in order to leave him, which is understandable.

He initially refused to give her extra financial help (apart from child maintenance of course) such as paying her rent, as he was hurt and angry, plus he felt he couldn't afford it and was worried she was going to take advantage of him, then I think went back and forth changing his mind about it a few times.

Apparently she said she might go and live somewhere cheaper, either back to Eastern Europe or elsewhere, if he wouldn't help her pay rent on her own place.
Lots of arguments, going round in circles etc

One day in late January after a short business trip to an EU country, she said she had found a job there through her company, better paid than the first job and a place which is cheaper than London but with v. high living standards, and wanted to move with their DD. He got very upset and said he wouldn't give his permission. Cue more arguments...

Then a week later in early February after a second trip back there, she announced she had signed a 12 month contract for said job, had put down a deposit on a flat rental, lined up a nanny and would be leaving on February 15th then returning at the end of the month to pick her their DD and move her out there permanently. That was it, she had decided.
She promised she would bring the LO back regularly e.g. every couple of months for 2 weeks, and a month over the summer.

My DB was distraught and suggested mediation and she refused. He suggested she go out there for a few months and come back asap and try and make a go of it with him - no, she's totally over the relationship. Fair enough. The next day, he begged her to come back to the UK to live and work, and he would pay her rent or whatever necessary to make it possible for her to live on her own and they could share custody. Again she refused- she said he'd had his chance and had screwed it up.

He has now told her he won't consent to her taking the child out of the country for the time being.
But he feels that he has to give in to her quite soon, as he doesn't want to antagonise her further and ruin his chances of maintaining a relationship with his DD, and also feels, rightly IMO, that the child should live and grow up with her mother if it's a choice between one or the other rather than shared custody, as kids need their mothers, but we have urged him to take legal steps and get a court order at least to "buy some time" and work out what's what before handing my niece over to her mother as once the child is resident in another EU country, the UK courts have no authority at all. She is aware of this herself.

She can't be forced to return to the UK to live, but perhaps she can be made to come back for mediation at least, to put proper arrangements in place for their daughter's future and her relationship with her dad?
She has no family out there. My DN regularly sees her grandmother, uncles, and an aunt on her mum's side all in London. DB's ex will have no family or friends to help her out if things are tough as a single mother.

We're worried she might make other impulsive decisions - having left home at 16, then moved to 2 foreign countries in the space of 2 years before she met my DB - and move somewhere else without telling him, or that her promises to maintain regular contact are empty.

Just wondered if anyone has heard of a similar situation and who, if anyone, is being unreasonable here. Thanks to anyone who's read this far!

I am not sure I am following this.

If I had a child with someone and they were telling me they were moving out of the country with that child there is no way I would agree to it.

I am not convinced your DB is really that bothered - you sound way more invested than he is.

I can see that this would be very painful for you and your family.

I wouldn't fault her for being 'underhand'. Now that you have the information, you are thinking about trying to force her to stay in this country, aren't you? For a young woman in a country that is not her own, that would be very alarming. Given that your DN will probably thrive best if her mum is thriving, you could really shoot their chance of a stable home life (as a family unit of two) in the foot.

Really, if the girl couldn't afford to live where she was living, couldn't find any way to do so, had no career prospect etc., I think it's fair to say that things haven't worked out for her in this land of opportunity and it's time to try somewhere more familiar, or somewhere she can get a better job. How was she to know that your relative was about to capitulate, or that he would have capitulated if she'd waited and begged? You're being unreasonable there. Although I can understand that the young mother's uhappiness and career prospects are not going to be your first priority, and I do agree that it's sad to have loving extended family unable to see her regularly, I think your DB has himself to thank for that to some extent, and from the outside, a new start actually seems like quite a good idea. I can understand why you are concerned, and unsure about what scheme is going to pop out next, but there isn't enough here for you to have any right to be seriously concerned about her - and especially not when there were opportunities to help the situation that were untaken.

I have to say, I hope she is able to get out of the country before these orders to keep her here are put into effect. I can't imagine the nightmare of being trapped in an unhappy relationship with someone too arrogant to listen or help, and then realising I was trapped here with my DD.

If your DB wants to see his DD, it sounds like he now could travel (or pay for her to travel) with the money that he has available and will not now be using to help her rent somewhere close to him.

Moving a child fom all they know is not necessarily a bad thing, if there are significant problems in the situation that they know. Moving country is not in itself harmful - many children manage the chance very successfully every year. Settling into a new routine at 20 months is perfectly do-able. The woman has taken time to sort out childcare and it certainly sounds acceptable on the face of it.

It's very sad when a relationship breaks down between two people from different countries, but quite frankly, that's the risk you take when you get together with someone from another country, especially someone so young. If it doesn't work out, of course she is likely to want to go home, or somewhere closer to home. One parent should not have a right to have the child kept in the country that the child was born in, simply because they were born there. The child is really still too young for an argument to be made that it would be traumatic to move her from her cultural context. Her cultural context is likely to largely be her mum, and it sounds like the mum is very willing to go to great lengths to facilitate ongoing contact between her ex's family and her DD - which is rather gracious of her, considering how little her needs have been respected.

The notion that this 21 year old would decide to move somewhere more familiar with the baby, if she became unhappy enough and if her options became sufficiently closed down, could have been spotted a mile off. It is very late in the day to suddenly become deeply concerned about her and the baby's welfare. If the baby's dad works 6 or 7 days a week, it sounds almost as if this girl was an unhappy little glorified babysitter, not listened to, largely on her own, ignored when she tried to ask for things to change. The one thing she seems to have been able to do is leave the country on her own for short periods; it's hardly surprising that she has used these absences to work out a way she can leave for longer, and start a new life with her DD. I think it's what I would do in her position, and what I hope my own DD would do. Her wishes and needs are only now being taken into account because your DB has belatedly realised that she has power than he thought.

If my DD began a relationship in another country with a man who behaved as this man has done, I would be utterly appalled at the idea that she might have to stay indefinitely. The idea that her life has to be over now because it will naturally be best for her DD to remain close to her white British father in a nice white British lifestyle, is ridiculous. Of course he is going to be concerned about all this, but he would be far better to channel that into building an honest, constructive relationship with his DD's mum, as that will be better for his DD in the long run. Panicking now and trying to control her into staying will lead to acrimony and a very unhappy home life for this little girl. He might have more peace of mind, but I'm nearly sure his DD won't.

Have PP also missed the part of the OP's story, whereby the woman's family, including mother and extended family, live in the UK too? I can't help but feel this story would play out differently on these boards if it was a man threatening to take his child overseas

I don't think OP's DB sounds controlling - actually, I think he sounds like someone who's been taken for a ride: however, if she genuinely had her daughter's interest at heart, why would she not agree to mediation? I can see why he refused to pay her rent, initially - he was angry, and people do stupid things - but he then recanted: she hasn't been left with no other option, no matter what PP think. And if she's so unemployable in the UK, isn't it rather convenient that she suddenly scores a good job somewhere with a good standard of living?

OP, there's a lot of auto-ahole happening here. Control abuse is a lot nastier than that shown by your DB.

But I do rather sympathise with your exSIL - how the hell is she supposed to live in London with a baby and no money? No wonder she's decided to bolt & try somewhere else. She can't rely on your DB, so she's relying on herself.

All controlling abuse is abuse, whether it's severe or not as severe, it all comes from the same place. I really don't think it's a good idea to categorise controlling abuse - Or where would eg Women's Aid stand? They'd have to turn away swathes bcs what they are experiencing ' isn't severe '.

What's auto-ahole btw?

Op your brother doesn't sound controlling. I think posters have also forgotten that it takes 2 to make a baby. He didn't just impregnate her! Makes us women sound passive. We can't have equality but have no control over pregnancy.

I can see why your brother didn't offer to pay her rent to stay in London. That would have been a huge financial burden for 18 years and would have caused no end of problems when mother met another partner. They are not married so according to the law he pays CM which he is doing.

I feel he has to accept that daughter will be brought up elsewhere. It is up to him to arrange to visit D on a monthly basis and holidays - if he wants to. Eventually he can Skype etc.

Erm better. What in earth are you saying??

On the one hand you say it takes two to make a baby ; then on the other you say it is a 'huge financial burden for 18 years '. Well yes, yes it is. That's how it goes. He steps up and does his bit bcs he made the baby too. Regardless what happens between the parents.

Sorry stupid question but if your brother works 6/7 days a week who's looking after the child when supposedly in his care.

And as for insisting his ex goes to mediation with him it sounds like she's tried to get him to compromise and help both her and their daughter to live near him and he has refused to help. Why should his ex pay from her already low wages go to mediation when all ready refused to help.

Your brother and to a certain extent you and your family are trying to stop his Ex and child having a life above the poverty line. She found a job which will allow her to support them and have better life.

clutterbug my DB works from home, so does some childcare himself, (always has, juggled with work' especially in the first few months before he took a second job to raise his earnings) but mostly she's with the nanny, or her maternal uncle, who's been sleeping on their sofa for over a year, or my mum who has been looking after her once a week but obviously is now doing more days a week.

The nanny started when my exSIL got a job...she's been doing long hours inlcuding weekends. she's certainly not unemployable in the uk and was promised promotion very soon after starting as she's great at her job. This new job abroad is with the same firm.

Spring - I mean in terms of paying for the exs rent for 18 years. Can't say I know many separated unmarried couples where one pays the rent for the other. Child mtmce should be paid I agree. But the rent? No. She sounds very employable so with tax credits I'm sure she will manage like the rest of us have to.

Would you like this very young woman to be forced to spend the next eighteen years here, OP, in a country that hasn't welcomed her and that she doesn't like, forced to accept help here and there from a man she would like to be independent of? Is that really what you want for your niece's mum, who is so very young herself?

Nobody is attempting to force her to live in Britain, the best DB can hope for is that she'll return of her own accord...I thought that was clear in my OP, where I said perhaps she can, however, be made to return for mediation, how many days that takes I don't know. I also pointed out that DB wants his Dd to live with her Mum most of the time, so if she's dead set on living abroad, so be it. He really just wants mediation at this point. He would pay for it himself for her too, if she can't afford it..being.the controlling git that he is

To the PP who talks about a White British lifestyle...that's very presumptuous. Also I already said that she's not going to a"familiar Place", she has no family or friends there, while she does in London!

being.the controlling git that he is

You said it.

Your brother sounds awful, a completely controlling, nasty little man.

I was 17, in a relationship with someone 15 years older than me. Missed a pill, got pregnant, didn't cave to the pressure to have an abortion. And the abuse started like you've described; all coming from a place of love. Obviously. I'd have left the country too. He found someone young and vulnerable that he could control, and so has your brother.

A 15 year age gap is of itself an abusive dynamic, especially when one of the people involved is a teenager, because things cannot be equal.

the best DB can hope for is that she'll return of her own accord

Unless your db applies for an emergency protection order or similar which will impose a moratorium on his dd being taken out of the UK, that is indeed all he can hope for and, if he doesn't consult a solicitor who specialises in family law within the next day or two, he may come to bitterly regret not taking action when he was able to do so.

As it stands your db cannot compel his ex to attend mediation, nor can she be compelled to return to the UK from whatever country she is residing in to do so.

While an emergency order will prohibit your dn being taken away from all she has known in her short life until such time as your db and his ex reach agreement or the court determines what is in your dn's best interests, it will not impede the child's dm from travelling to and from the UK.

I would suggest you have a serious talk with your db as, given the date, time is of the essence.

He does sound controlling, I dropped out of A levels, and if dp was constantly harping at me to go to back to college, I would be seriously pissed off too. Being badgered to something you don't want to is never pleasant. I would take any stories with a pinch of salt, (unless they corroborat each other, like db wanting to "improve" her which both agree happened). Try to have a good relationship with her yourself, and she'll be much more likely to update you about dn, and let you have contact yourself if possible.

If this situation was reversed the responses would be vastly different.

Man staying out until all hours while the woman is left holding the baby. Disappearing to another country to find a job leaving the baby behind then claiming he'll be back in a month to collect the baby. Err I don't think so. But of course because this is a woman she is a victim and he is the nasty abuser. .

The reality is that if you choose to have children with someone who lives in a foreign country (which tbh doesn't sound that foreign to her given all her family live here as well,) then part of that choice means that in the event of a relationship breakdown you may have no choice but to remain living in said country for the benefit of the child you chose to have.

Op your DB needs to get legal advice asap, and yes, I would seek to take out a prohibited steps order to prevent her from leaving the country. Especially as it sounds as if she doesn't have a support network in the country she's going to and there is one here, including the baby's maternal relatives.

It is what it is. She is female. She is very young. Things have been tried to help her, but perhaps not hard enough. Now she wants to move elsewhere; not necessarily a bad thing. If she was a man, we could have that conversation too, but she isn't. In this kind of situation, the devil's in the detail. I personally don't think that a night out, man or woman, should have any impact on your parental rights.

Quite right, indeed my DB is not attempting to remove her parental rights. Afaik parental rights and responsibilities apply to both of them and the main issue here is the unilateral decisions she has made, hurriedly, and announced without properly working things out or thinking things through. E.g. She wants DN to spend a month with DB over the summer plus two weeks here and there, but I'm pretty sure her nanny will have found another job by then as she can't be expected to hang around, so how is DB supposed to manage? This kind of detail needs sorting out beforehand.
Yes, she is so young, it was all "too much too soon", plus DB had unrealistic expectations perhaps.

wannabe I am inclined to agree with your points... "Nasty little man" , abuser and poor helpless victim do not really describe these two as I know them. they are both very stubborn, hardnosed people and both not very good at expressing emotions, from what I've seen, but they both did their best to make things work, in the beginning, and are both loving parents.

Caring for his DD on access visits is not her problem, with respect OP. He was always going to have to make part-time arrangements and it sounds like he's in a better position to compromise than she is. And she probably presumed this very keen family would be making the most of the visits.

I don't think you can say the decision has been made 'hurriedly' or without proper thought; you can't know. It hasn't been made in consultation with your db but it sounds like he made it clear that consultation wasn't his thing. And yes, she's doing the best thing for her, rather than paying attention to what your db might like, but I can't fault her for that. If she is as hard nosed and determined as you say, she will give a certain amount of chances and then go on her merry way.

I don't think anyone can say whether your brother is abusive or not, but I still maintain he left her very little choice, by repeatedly refusing to help her to rent a place near him.

I understand that he is entitled to ask for a prohibited steps order, but where will that leave her? She cannot afford to rent anywhere close to him and would not be allowed to take the child further away. Meanwhile she loses the job, flat and nanny that she has lined up.

If this was my DD, the idea of her being chained to living in one area indefinitely because it's where a man who was 16 years her senior lived, who wouldn't help her with her rent even though he was the reason she had to live there... It's enough to make my snip up my dad's passport into a thousand little pieces