Worried and suspicious

[WorriedWoman1234]

I'll try to be brief. I am 71 and DP 73 (been together over 40 years) He has had affairs in the past and made overtures to friends, but not for man years. To me it was all in the past and I never have it a thought.

However the past has re-emerged for me and causing me a great deal of distress. DP is a member of a rambling club and in August went on a walking holiday with 2 women from the club. I wasn't happy as it reminded me of the past when he had been on walking holidays with the OW.

Over the past few months one of the women J has been suffering from anxiety and asked DP if he would go over (it's not far) to help her sort her finances out but when he got there, she'd already sorted things out but didn't tell him. We had a row because I was being reminding of the past and then I felt guilty so I said maybe he should go and see her as she was unwell and he jumped at the chance saying "I'll go tomorrow" but she was busy and suggested the following week, so he went over again. Then she contacted him to ask if he'd help her move some furniture and go on a short walk as she was feeling better. I was pissed off because she's been divorced for years so must have people to help her move furniture - she's definitely got a son-in-law who lives nearby. DP said he wasn't sure about the walk as I had an appointment so he moved the furniture and that wa that.

In his birthday card she wrote:

"Happy Birthday X
With warm wishes, love and thanks for all your care and support. It means a lot to me............J x

I thought it was a very intimate message and the care and support was DP helping her to plan a walk (they take it in turns to do this in the club) or at least that was the explanation. I don't know this woman, never seen her and I thought it insensitive to write something like this in a birthday card.

On Wed she is driving him to the Ramblers Christmas lunch. She offered to do this because he was due to have an op on his and so wouldn't have been able to drive, but the op has been postponed but she's still driving him so he can have a drink.

They e mail each other on a regular basis, and last night we have a big row and I demanded to see the e mails. He said they'd been deleted. In the end he showed me one from Aug (about 4 lines talking about tents!) He says he won't show me any more because of "what I'll read into them" and he refuses to be monitored. The comment about "What I'll read into them has given me the idea that there IS something he doesn't want me to see.

I know this might sound something and nothing but it's brought the pas back and I'm very distressed. I suffer from intermittent depression which is severe at times. DP has been very caring and supportive of me since this illness began 6 years ago.

What do you think?

I'd imagine his lack of respect for you and continuing to be a letch to whatever woman will entertain has probably contributed to your mental health problems.

It's never to late to move on from a deadbeat, he's never changed OP, and your acceptance of his constant infidelity has given him the green light, so really, nothing has changed.

Only you can decide what is worth staying for, I'd have been long gone.

Hmm. I find it odd that he'd delete e-mails. They don't take up any memory. If he was approaching his memory limit, the things to delete would be media files, photo's, video's etc. E-mails will definitely show up on his phone. Although he could of course delete them.

Why is he so guarded with the phone? Why is there a pass code?

I know how I would get around this. Ask to borrow it when your battery is flat! Make it when you are out, with no access to a charger. His response will tell you what you need to know!

Or, ask him if you can use his laptop when he's out walking. Tell him yours has a virus and you've dropped it into the repair shop. Say it's really urgent as you have on-line Christmas shopping to do. Then, search his History.

he said with a Mac they went straight to trash and couldn't be retrieved. I don't know if that's true.

That's not how it's set up by default, although it's possible to set up the Mail program so that it does happen. He would have had to make changes to the settings in order for that to happen.

It's far more likely he's lying, based on all other evidence, I'd say. But if you don't have access to his computer then it's irrelevant anyway. He is clearly cheating or trying to cheat; his reactions and the amount of security he has on phone and computers tells you that very blatantly.

I'm sorry, I know it must hurt. You said you had MH problems - how much does he actually help with that, day to day? Because honestly if I thought I was in a supposedly monogamous relationship but suspected I was being cheated on and lied to, I know my MH would spiral down fairly quickly. Constantly feeling anxious and suspicious is really not a good recipe for MH worries :(

OP, often when people are depressed and they have a cheating DP/DH as soon as they leave the depression lifts miraculously. Just a thought.

Thanks again for all your posts. I don't really use a mobile I've got one (an imitation blackberry from Tesco) but I rarely use it and no one phones me. The irony is that if it does right DP always checks it as I can't be bothered because it's just someone trying to sell me something. So asking to use his mobile would appear strange I'm afraid. Likewise the laptop - I don't know how to use a Mac and he'd definitely smell a rat. I know it sounds like I'm making excuses but after the row yesterday he'd know what I was trying to find out. Mind I am not letting it go about the e mails - but will possibly wait till after Christmas, but I will definitely be issuing an ultimatum.

I don't know why he is so guarded with his phone, he has been like this ever since he had one some years ago. I think there is a pass code because I've seen him type in a number. So coldwhitewine if someone e mails him it will definitely show up on his phone as well as the laptop? I'm going to ask my son if he told him to delete the e mails.

pocketsaviour as I've said before he has been very supportive of my mental illness and I don't know how I'd have got through without him, and he is making great efforts to re-assure me that there is nothing to worry about. To be honest I don't think there is anything going on, but it's brought back the past to me and it's causing me great distress. I just posted his cards as I was going to the post office and there wasn't one to J. I asked him about it when I got back and he said "Oh god not another row" - then said he might give her one on Wednesday. So I think he might have a special card to give her although he denies it of course.

I have a plan to wait near her house on Wed to see whether they go back to hers, which would be highly suspicious. I know the road but not the number but can find out from 192.com even though it will cost me £9.95 and I don't know what car she drives. She's picking DP up at 10 on Wed so I'll be looking out the window to check what sort of car she has.

I'm extra worried about Wed because when DP has been drinking his inhibitions are reduced (as with most people) and he can get overly affectionate. I'll keep you posted.............

tb I honestly don't think my depression is related to DP's behaviour. If I thought it was I'd be packing right now as I have suffered for 6 years off and on (this year more on than off) and blighted my life.

he is making great efforts to re-assure me that there is nothing to worry about

Except that he's refusing to let you read emails between the two of them, or unlock his phone, or accept that his "friendship" with someone who sends him inappropriate cards is extremely upsetting to you, given his history of cheating. Instead he tells you that he's entitled to "friends" and to put you back in your box he tells you that you "read too much into things". So what great efforts, exactly, is he making?

How do these great efforts differ from what he did when he was having affairs before, and you suspected him?

Hmm I see what you mean pocketsaviour - we've just had another row and I told him I didn't want to hear this shite about deleted e mails and if he wants to prove there is nothing going on, he would let me see them. He agreed he would in future, but we'll see.

The phone has never been an issue because I've never used his phone or wanted to. Do you think the wording on that birthday card was inappropriate. I do and that came up again tonight. I asked him what this "care" was about and he said she had osteoporosis and he helped her down a slope when they were out with the ramblers. First I've heard of osteoporosis. I think she's a bit of a hypochondriac.

When he had affairs before I didn't have mental health issues was so stronger to deal with it.

But you're right he is still insisting he has the right to have a friend (I replied that he was friends with X but it didn't stop him trying to get off with her) it was a mutual friend and was about 20 years ago.

He is making efforts by supporting me practically and emotionally (on bad days I cry for long periods) and he takes over all household tasks and shopping when I'm not able. He is very affectionate and keeps insisting that there is nothing to worry about.

We'll see................

This wording:
"With warm wishes, love and thanks for all your care and support"

Nope. No. Totally inappropriate to send to a married/partnered man.

If I had a male friend who had given me huge amounts of support - like giving me a place to crash after a breakup, helping me in my career, or spending 2 hours patting me on the shoulder while I cried - I would still not send that card. I would write something like "Thanks for being such a great friend this year" or similar.

If I knew his wife as well, then I might address the card to both of them, and write a similar message of love and warmth. But it would be to them BOTH.

Helped her down a slope, my fat backside.

When he had affairs when you were younger, how did you find out? Were there signs, or did he end up telling you?

When I was a kid, my dad was a serial adulterer. He pretty much constantly had an OW on the go. He hit all the old-school cliches: unexplained long days at the office, get a call on the house phone then suddenly decide he was "popping out for an hour or two", or my mum would pick up and the line would go dead, come home smelling of weird perfume, be even more critical and uncaring of her than usual, etc.

Sometimes he would use me as a cover - he'd decide that I needed badminton lessons or horse riding or some shit, and then he'd dump me at the lesson and sneak off for 2 hours or so to meet someone.

She would accuse and he would deny, deny, deny, gaslighting the fuck out of her and on one occasion forcing her to phone the OW to apologise for suspecting her. Then after a couple of months he would calmly announce "I'm leaving you for Miss Thing, my secretary. She's a real woman!" pack his bags and fuck off, leaving us with no money or food. Then after a few weeks the OW would realise he was an abusive shit and bin him off, so he'd come back, selling it as "I've decided to give you another chance..."

She always took him back, and she always believed his denials.

Two things strike me from your posts....
One, I bet your mental health would pick up if you binned his sorry arse and your precious headspace wasn't being consumed by this shit.
B, this is not ageist but at your age I would not be putting up with this crap.
I would just bide your time and wait for an in with the phone and emails. He will leave his guard down at some point.

Don't get hung up on sleuthing op. He's got form so he's likely to be cheating again - he got away with it before so why not.

Concentrate on what you want out of life. Talk to friends, do things that make you happy. Don't obsess about the inevitable.
Get some real life support and or counselling. He's unlikely to change

I really wouldn't lurk about in her street - I understand the wanting to, but I would get really worked up in the process, totally anxious and probably hysterical (I appreciate you might have better self-control than I do!) and then either make a complete fool of myself by leaping out at her as she returned (alone) or ended up reported the police for loitering...

I disagree with some of the PP, in that whilst I do think he should kick her clearly into touch, even if he personally doesn't feel the need, I don't think he's gaslighting you: he's said you can see future emails (though I agree - you need to see if that happens) and seems aware that this is distressing to you (though not enough to stop doing it, obviously).

Also, you do need to think of your own health - it's not that you should tolerate unacceptable behaviour just because you are ill, of course, but you need to be aware (as you are) that what's happening now isn't the only issue, perhaps. You say that it's really that it reminds you of what happened before - have you had any counselling etc to try to deal with that, or even just to talk it through with a neutral third party? I'm just wondering if the current situation would be one that wouldn't be bothering you to this extent if you weren't already ill? I'm not meaning at all to minimise it - because you've explained why it's a problem, and he ought to be bending over backwards to put things right: but I know myself that part of being depressed is that sometimes, things become out of all proportion to what they actually are, if that makes sense. (Again, I'm not saying this isn't a big deal - but just wondering whether he has had this sort of friendship in the past, and you've just rolled your eyes and thought "silly bugger" because everything else was OK and you were not as vulnerable.

I guess I am saying, whilst you shouldn't tolerate nonsense indefinitely, don't be too hasty to kick him into touch over this - see if he lives up to his promises with regard to being more transparent etc over the emails and all that.

Also - if he's always fancied himself as a bit of a ladies' man, I suspect he is enjoying the attention: from her, with her inappropriate sentiments, and also that you are querying him over it. Sad to say, some men would be flattered and see that as "still having it" and that you two are scrapping over him Again - doesn't make it OK, especially as you've told him it's not: but his claims do ring true. (And yes, she sounds like a bit of a drama queen too...)

Thank you Hefzi for your very measured post. You are absolutely right that I shouldn't be hanging about in her street - that was a daft idea. I don't think know what gas lighting is - will have to look it up - is it when a bloke does things to make the woman think she is losing the plot (or something like that) He's certainly not doing that.

Yes he has said he won't delete any more e mails and he'll show me but whether that happens or not - time will tell, but I won't let it rest. He asked me today if I wanted to see the Christmas card he'd written for her and I said NO, but I had a look when he was out of the room and it was just her name and then Happy Christmas printed and he'd added "and a good new year" and his name. Mind she will probably give him one tomorrow. I shall be so glad when tomorrow is over. I'm aiming to glance out of the bedroom window to get a glimpse of her when she picks him up.

I haven't had any counselling over issues in the past that have caused me distress and I've had plenty of opportunity - it just never crossed my mind - it was all in the past. I've been ill for 6 years and this is the first time I have been suspicious of him since I've been ill. I honestly don't think my feelings are related to my depression, it just makes it more difficult. And the feelings came like a bolt out of the blue and of course remind me of all the problems in the past. He is actually trying very hard to show that he loves and cares for me and I believe him, but it doesn't take away that nagging worry. I keep thinking of what she wrote in his birthday card - I still think it was highly insensitive of her. I see you have commented on her inappropriate sentiments - is that what you meant. He refuses to acknowledge that there was anything appropriate about what she wrote.

He doesn't fancy himself as a ladies man honest - he's 73, medium height, very thin, bald and a bit shy, though that hasn't stopped him hurting me in the past of course. I honestly don't think he could manage a sexual relationship even if he wanted to, but I agree he is probably flattered by her attention and they could have an "emotional affair" - we'll see. But thanks again, and to everyone else who has posted.

I would find it very hard not to be suspicious in your situation given his past behaviour. I hope it's alright if I give my point of view, it seems a bit worthless seeing as you're many decades more experienced in life than I am!
I would be tempted to cling and become a nag if I felt insecure in my marriage. I think the "correct" thing to do would be to let him do whatever it is he wants to do and try your hardest to trust him and just hope he comes back to you. I do think he has the "right" to friends of whatever gender, but you may have different agreements in your marriage. I like to think I'd force myself to become more active so I could join in too (unless of course disability means you can't ramble) it seems like there is more to their friendship than just sexual attraction, they must be quite close after walking all those miles..it sounds as if he is having fun with this woman that he isn't having with you. I would try my hardest to get his friendship back if at all possible. Good luck

worried I think the fact that he's sent her a very normal Christmas card shows that it is one-sided: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive and suggest that he is some kind of Lothario - I just know sometimes some men can get their heads turned easily for very little reason. Given everything you've said, I don't think you have cause to be worried anything more is going on - and he seems to be doing a lot to try to set your mind at rest etc

Have you had any counselling at all for your depression? If not, it might be worth trying, irrespective of that, actually, in order to unpack all your feelings around the affair - sometimes, I think, we deal with stuff and put it aside, and it's only much later that we realise it's still unresolved etc (Mind you, I know it can be a total faff finding the right counsellor/therapist, and you might not be up to some of the messing around with all that at the moment.) I appreciate what you mean, though, when you say it's a separate issue - and when something's nagging away at you, it's hard to set it aside: it's hard to prove something isn't the case, in a sense, as there's not the evidence to find.

For whatever it's worth, I know he doesn't agree, but I think what she's written in the card is not on, and I think surely she knew that too: perhaps I am too cynical about other women, though! I would never express myself in that way to a married friend, though, particularly when I didn't know his wife. I think you are being very restrained, though - I'd be dangling out the flaming window to see what she looks like!

Good Luck tomorrow, anyway - and hang in there: I think you're dealing in a very dignified way with an uncomfortable situation

Thanks Hefzi and playncly I have had an enormous amount of counselling for depression, both privately and on the NHS but it has made no difference. I think counselling is ok if there is some buried trauma from the past that is the cause of the depression but that isn't the case with me. My first severe episode (when I was 51) was following the death of my dearest friend. I was an IP for 3 months and made a complete recovery. I was fine for 14 years (stayed on the meds) and the decided o come off them - did it very gradually but 4 months after finished the meds I relapsed and was an IP again in2010 for 3 months but haven't made much of a recovery this time.

You're right that when something is nagging at me it's hard to put it aside. I was pissed off this morning because I woke at 10.15 a.m. (the meds knock me out) and so I missed seeing her. I do actually know what she looks like because she was on FB but took herself off because her mother (with whom she has a bad relationship) was trying to "friend" her - DP told me this. There is also a picture of her on her website as she's an English tutor. I suspect that one was taken some time ago. She's just an ordinary 60 something woman.

Oh god he's just come back - I was worrying that she'd come in as well. Phew - he's shown me her Christmas card and it's ok "wishing you a happy, healthy and fulfilling 2016" so no problem with that.

Blimey op! How can depression get that you are admitted to hospital! You must've felt awful. I can't get my head around depression as I've not experienced it. This second time you were Ill, was there nothing in particular you could say was the cause ? (Like the first time it was after your friends death) you don't attribute it to your husband? I think you're very brave. I can't imagine having the energy for all this lying and sneaky stuff that he is doing to yOu

Lots of people are admitted to hospital Play and depression in its severe form is very serious and there is a real danger of suicide. More people are hospitalised for more serious mental illnesses, the psychotic illnesses where people are out of touch with reality. Mind I think they try hard to keep people out of hospital as MH services are thin on the ground and it's cheaper to have the home treatment visit on a regular basis. I don't think people can understand clinical depression because people talk about being "depressed by the weather" etc. Severe depression is an absolute torment and I've had days on end where suicidal thoughts have just crowded in.

The second time I put down to the fact that I stopped the meds after 14 years. Even though I did it gradually, it still caused a relapse. The other thing is that after one severe episode of depression, there is a 50% chance of another episode, and after a second episode there is an 80% risk. No I certainly don't attribute the relapse to DP.

To be honest DP isn't lying to me - well I don't think he is (although he did in the past) and time will tell whether he is closer to this woman than he is making out. He's not good at covering his tracks as I found out about the other incidents, so if there is anything going on, I feel confident that I'll find out.

I've been ill with depression (off and on) for 6 years and he has been incredibly supportive - don't think I could have managed without him.

Sorry, worried - I just wanted to suggest the counselling thing in case you hadn't tried it: I've had numerous attempts (including at CBT) and it hasn't really made an impact on me- I think it works better if there's "something" at the root of it, rather than when it's just how you're made or whatever. I sometimes wish there was a blood test they could do that shows up something and that they could say, "Aha, you are deficient in x, y and z: we can resolve that by this, this and this".

I'm sorry that you've been an IP - it's vile, isn't it? I think being an IP was the most terrifying time of my life: I don't think it's anything that is undertaken lightly, and as you say, there have been so many cuts that MH provision is really bad. I don't know if you saw the programme on it (Horizon? Panorama?) where the various wards had to nominate the "least ill" person to be released. I am very pleased for you, though, that your DP has been so supportive: apart from anything else, it gives me hope to know that there are people out there who can do this. I tend to avoid other people because I assume that no-one who didn't have to (because it's not their illness) would want to bother: I think it must be very hard for him too, and also very frustrating, because I am sure he would a thousand times rather it was him who's suffering rather than you.

Anyway, at least her card was couched appropriately! I hope you manage to enjoy Christmas together, and that 2016 brings you good health and healing.