Crumbling marriage and suspected infidelity

[pippy2013]

Sorry I don't have any support and I need to share with someone....Been married/together 12 years (2 children in school) . My husband has only had one other partner before me (long term) - no history of cheating. We moved to the Netherlands from the UK over 2 years ago for my husbands' job - children are now bilingual and settled here. Although admittedly we have had some difficulties in our marriage I did expect him to be faithful. I've had suspicions for the last 8 months that he was getting close to someone at work - he travels abroad regularly and I first became suspicious when he went away twice with one particular female colleague (second trip was alone for a week with her.) Then on a weekend break away to Edinburgh with me a text message popped up while he was in the shower - from the same woman, the tone was very over-familiar - we'd been to see some comedy (she said something about "....Hope you save some humour for me"). I noticed later that day he had deleted the message. I confronted him about this and he completely denied any wrong doing and said she was a good work friend and had been asking about a 'work issue' and he deleted it as he felt it was inappropriate to discuss work while we were away. We had a huge row about it and he said the issue was more about us and we needed to sort out our marriage. I continued to have my suspicions as he now no longer talks to her at all by text, so I suspect he is chatting to her some other way (i.e. password protected laptop). He said he also had a word with her and told her I wasn't happy about him having 'work texts' at home. I have tried to get on with things as normal and hoped this was the end of it, but I just discovered a very personal message written on a piece of paper tucked in my husbands notebook - see image. Whichever way I look at it, this can only be from someone who is more than just a 'good friend'. I know it's from her as the 'tone' is the same as the text message. I can't believe he would jeopardise our marriage like this, he knows very well that I would divorce him if he was unfaithful. I don't know how far this has gone between them, it could just be a flirtation or something more - but I'm completely taken aback by it. the woman (10 yrs younger than my husband) only got married a year ago herself- her husband works at the same company and I'm now considering contacting him to see if he has any suspicions and to show him the message she wrote to my husband. If I confront my husband about the message - I think he will just deny it's anything more than just a flirtation perhaps. If he knew I contacted her husband he will be furious with me and I fear he could walk out on me. What should I do? It's my daughters birthday next week and I really don't want to cause any problems before then. I'm feeling very devastated right now - I live in a foreign country and have no family support (except for my MIL but I can't talk to her about it) and i haven't made any close friends here yet I can talk to.

Pippy

New to this (and a chap so feel free to disregard) but I cannot agree with bear that letter smacks of an infatuated girl keeping her older man on the hook. I think you have every right to feel concerned, if I was entirely innocent and my wife had concerns I would be going out of my way to allay her fears.

Trust your gut, but keep your powder dry until you have proof as if you accuse your husband of having an affair and he isn't there is no way back really.

I don't wish to add to your suspicions but as a bloke there is nothing innocent about that note at all.

I hate to say this but I think you have confronted him too soon, I think he will cover his tracks now, sorry. However it may also make him realize what he is doing an make him stop. I think you desperately need a friend in rl to bounce stuff off. I sincerely hope that you can put this behind you both an move on, please please start doing enjoyable stuff for yourself to distract you from all this. I hope u continue to post as you really sound like you need to get this all out an not in ur head. All the best op.

Thanks for your honest message - my story sounds like your friends situation. When i've challenged him about what I've given up he just tells me that I chose not to return to work, and he won't accept that I've sacrificed my career to raise the children. He believes it was my choice all along. He says that he's the one that has got up every morning to go to work to support us all and because I don't have a job, then my job is to maintain the house and do all the errands that he can't do. He simply doesn't understand that had I been working full time as he has done, he would've had to do so much more on top of his own workload.
He arrogantly believes that had i worked full time we would have hired a cleaner, done food shopping on the weekend and managed. I have worked, just self-employed on my own small scale business that I did from my kitchen table when my kids slept or went to pre-school. He's a pretty stubborn man and refuses to acknowledge any inequality in our lives. I just feel like giving him a real shock and going out to get a full time job - then he may realise what I actually do. He thinks I play the 'victim' role and constantly blame him for how crap I perceive my life to be. You're right, dependence is not helping in this situation.
He's fuming with me tonight because i challenged him about not answering my messages this morning, oh the joys of marriage!

onlyif - I agree I think I may have confronted him too much already. But I just couldn't keep it to myself - I was going insane. I really won't ever have proof as he sees her at work and they have stopped all phone contact. He said he's trying to be as normal as he can at home, be here for the kids and do normal family stuff. Last night he even looked into booking a holiday for the xmas break for us. I guess I can only try to make things work between us and perhaps go for the counselling route- he has now agreed to this. I do believe he's said something to the woman as I don't think you can fake someone's words and response, I think he may have been worried in case I said something to her husband as I suggested this. Perhaps the counselling will help, i may also see someone myself as I find it hard to talk to friends about this kind of thing. I do have support here, I know a lot of people now as I'm very active in my expat community - I just find it too personal to talk to people i know about it. I am working on myself more, I'm doing physio for some back problems and starting to socialise more on my own. We've also talked about getting a babysitter so we can go out sometimes, something we never do. Thanks for your support here, it means a lot to be heard and hear your feedback too.

BLindsider - thanks for your perspective too, its good to hear a mans point of view. I'm really disappointed my OH isn't trying to reassure me more - but I don't think he has much feeling for me left, sad to say. I think it's been more of an emotional affair which to me is bad enough and probably boosted his ego somewhat. He's not your typical alpha male, and usually women wouldn't cast a 2nd glance at him. But , he is very charming, witty and smart so some women go for that. I think he's given her a lot of work support too. There certainly isn't anything innocent in the note I know - my instinct told me that. My instinct also tells me it may not all be over - but all i can do is try to improve what we have. Thanks again :)

Everyone I know who is married or in a relationship puts that in their status on FB,regardless of whether or not their partner uses FB.

Did your DH give you a reason why he didn't answer your calls this morning?

Lucysnow12 - just read the article, it's very interesting! I'm quite into psychology and have always felt that my husbands criticising ways had been a big part in why I pushed him away. He's very intolerant of people, unfortunately for him (and me) - his mother came over last week to visit and within minutes he was being critical towards her, he has no empathy for other people sadly. His mother was riding a bike for the first time in 30 years here, and he was telling her how slow she was going! By the end of her stay here I could see she couldn't wait to go back home. He's a clever guy but just lacks warmth and understanding - he suffers with enormous amount of stress too. I'm a really warm, sensitive person and get nothing from him - he's interesting to talk to but pretty cold emotionally (but maybe thats just with me!). I'll try the book too on my kindle. I need all the help i can get! Maybe I really need to look at why I want to continue staying with him....

I think you would benefit from seeing the counseler on your own. I can understand why you wouldn't want to share this in rl with a friend, however it really does help to do so.

Here's another take on love and marriage - learning what is you and your P's love language:

www.5lovelanguages.com/profile/couples/

Was your H always so critical? How is he with your kids? This might be a carryover from his own childhood.

You admit you've been distancing him so he probably won't be very warm towards you. I guess you really have to decide what you want in the future.

Yes he's always been quite critical and very impatient towards people. He doesn't suffer fools gladly!
I'm very close to his mother and we often have long discussions about him being repressed emotionally etc. He's a very difficult person to live with, needs a lot of space and alone time, and gets stressed very easily by family life. He's also the same way with the children - the children are much closer to me than him. When he's away for a week or so travelling, they rarely miss him and have even been disappointed when I've said he's coming home. Which makes me very sad.
He is a good father mostly, he loves and cares for them and wants the best but he finds the demands of family life difficult plus has a stressful job. My eldest child (10) is very much like him and we have huge problems with her. I really think he could do with counselling himself but I doubt he would be open to that.
At the moment he's not talking to me as I accused him of seeing this woman the other day, I'm pretty worried he might walk out on me any day. He keeps saying he needs to leave to get some space to think...times are not good. I don't know if a counsellor for us both at this moment would be the right thing to do - it's also very expensive. I would just be in tears at a counselling session and my husband hates it when i cry!

I may have to find a counsellor just for myself so i can get things out - if i talk to my husband we end up having a huge argument. If I raise anything with him it just seems to push him away, he can't cope with it. He keeps saying that this thing with the other woman is nothing to do with it - he just can't see why I'm so upset about it. He thinks we had all these problems before she came along, but I didn't think it was so bad.

Lucysnow12 - yes certainly his lack of warmth may well have something to do with me pushing him away. Its been a viscious circle, when he criticised me over something domestic in the house I withdrew from him and the cycle just got worse. He did lessen it after I explained to him how it made me feel but because of his intolerance of things he sometimes can't help it. Often the first thing he would say to me after coming home would be a complaint about something not being put away or little petty things. It just drives the love out of any relationship.

hi OP.

He's angry with you alright and its nothing to do with you pushing him away.
Its all to do with you finding out about his little relationship with the w at work. He's angry with you because he's been found out.

Its not looking good for you at all. Tell him to decide between his job and your marriage. Or tell him if she doesn't tell her H about the situation you are going to inform him. Even though you may not be planning on doing this, his reaction will speak volumes. Ask him, based on him admitting to their relationship "getting to close", she needs to be honest with her H. I can tell you know, if you allow them to keep this a secret from the H. They will continue as before. Only now they will be more careful and also they may start making plans for the future!

He will never admit to any wrong doing.
Based on what you now know, its time for you to think about your future. Its very possible this was an affair waiting to happen, but you have caught him out. There's no doubt this is why he's angry right now. Because he had to let the OW know about what you found out, its put everything out in the open and she is going to panic. The question is what they are going to do now..

One thing you do need to do is, get yourself a job. You need to protect yourself for the future.
Let him know how serious this situation is, he has created a huge problem in your marriage.

Thanks bjrce for your feedback.

We had another 'talk' last night about it and he doesn't even seem to want to work it out with me. He is constantly denying anything is going on with the other woman and says it's all about me and him. He said there's always been friction between us and he finds it too stressful living with me and thinks we've tried to work it out before between ourselves (we have never sought help in our marriage). He thinks a separation for a while will give him the head space he needs, but I think once he goes that will be it. He's very depressed at the moment and doesn't seem to have thought anything through regarding moving out. He said he wants to be a better father to the children and doesn't think he can do this while living with all this stress.

I told him that if he left I would contact the OW and ask what was going on between them and also inform her husband. He really does not like it whenever I say this, he has a panicked look on his face - but surely if there's nothing going on the OW she would tell me so?? He said it would make things very awkward at work as both of them (OW and her husband) work with him.
My husband can't get another job here as there aren't companies that offer the right work for him - he would certainly refuse to leave his job anyway. He has a good position now - when we first met he had nothing and worked his way up.

The OW only got married a year ago- I find it hard to believe she would do this to her husband. And my husband really isn't a 'looker' - and he scoffs at the idea that she would be 'after' him. She's a decade younger than him, and is in a more senior role than my husband. What could be the appeal in an older, balding, odd looking man with two kids and an ex-wife to support !!!! He is very personable and witty, so I know a lot of women tend to like his friendship. Which is why I'm so tempted to believe that it's just a good friend.

I have several options right now:

1. try counselling with him (which he's said he would try)
2. contact this OW and/or her husband (but I fear that this may blow the whole thing out in the open and if her marriage ends then they are both free then to move their possible relationship forward)
3. Financially, he accepts and agrees he would support me and the kids - however we aren't well off enough to fund two mortgages/rents and he wouldn't be willing to not have his own place. But we do have some savings he could use (in his account) that could fund him for a year or so. So, I let him go and see if he can sort his head out over this.

I'm very active at the moment in a voluntary role and I'm just at the point of starting my own business - so this is really bad timing for me. Our kids are in school now, we bought our own house last year and I thought we were looking forward to brighter times, I just can't believe this is happening. I'm 45, living in a foreign country, I have no family back home in the UK so I've no idea what I'll do if this ends. I'm financially dependant on him and have no pension for the future.

I think I'll have to try and seek counselling for us - we can't not try and make this work. I don't think he would continue living a lie with this OW if we were trying to make it work. He even said last night that if I wanted to move back to the UK so I could find work easier he would consider moving too for the kids.

I'm so confused. And it's the Dutch Christmas celebrations tomorrow - biggest day in the year for Dutch children. What a nightmare! I woke at 4am and couldn't get back to sleep :-(

Lucysnow12 - the website link was interesting. Perhaps my husband and I are just incompatible - I think his scores on this would be very different, likely the opposite of mine. He told me last night I'm a very selfish person and he's always found that difficult. I'm very self-sufficient as I had to grow up without a father and a disabled mother so I've become very independent but he sees it as selfishness :-/ We have neglected each other and not looked after each others needs - for example when he's stressed or tired I'll end up giving him a hard time about something I'm not happy about, he says I don't recognise his needs.

My scores:
10 Acts of Service
7 Receiving Gifts
7 Words of Affirmation
4 Quality Time
2 Physical Touch

Your thoughts seem very sound but saving your marriage is dependent on him recognizing ands knowledge get your marriage isn't good enough and bring willing to do what's necessary to make it better.

Doesn't sound like he's with you on that and you can't do it alone.

Pippy , I'm so sorry to hear what you are going through.

I see that you are planning to let him have your joint savings to live off for a year if you separate . Please get legal advice before you do that . I have no idea what the law is in Holland . But if you did this in England , he would still have claim to 50% of your marital home after he has spent 100% of your savings .

Again, in England you would have a right to half his pension for the time you had been married and he would have to pay maintenance for the children .

I think your H and this woman are having an emotional affair. That is why he needs space and is more distant. His needs are being met by her and vice versa. They are enjoying the attention and affirmation the other is providing.

So much of what you write I have read over and over on affair threads. If you are going to save your marriage, you both have to work on it 100%. I agree that you should get legal advice and seek counselling for yourself.

I think it's fine to have different love languages. Knowing your partners love language helps you to meet their needs. My H's is Words of Affirmation - something he never received as a child.

From what you write, it sounds like you are both always defensive and ready to criticise. I think you should really think about how you communicate with each other. Maybe agree to say only positive words to each other for a week and see what happens. Try to remember what you found attractive about each other when you first met.

Having children is stressful. They require so much emotional energy. Dealing with everyone's emotions and needs is exhausting. But life would be so empty without them.

Honestly, I think you need to gather your independence and determination and crack on with sorting out a personal pension (mine costs £80 per month) and finding a job. It's great you've started volunteering - use that as a stepping stone into work.

It sounds like he may be done and there is little you will be able to do to change that. You need to make a great life for yourself and live for you (and DC)

Thanks everyone for all your support and advice - it really has helped to have people to share this with. I'm feeling more calmer now that a few days have passed. I now have a plan and feeling more positive:

1. I have found a recommended counsellor - I'm going to meet with her myself first then suggest OH joins me. We certainly have communication issues, i.e. both are quick to criticise or get defensive.
2. I'm going to continue with all my current activities - i.e. seeing the career coach, getting my CV updated, looking for jobs and start my business.
3. My OH and I are now talking again, I have agreed to draw a line under the issue with the OW (on the condition that when he goes away, he keeps in touch with me and is reachable by phone). And of course that he discontinues any relationship outside of working with her.
4. If this is all a cover up and he is still seeing her, I don't have control over that but I have made it very clear that if it's going on still - his stuff will be thrown out the house and I will seek a divorce. He is still adamant that it was just a good friendship which he admits did over-step the mark - I hope that I caught it before it went any further.
5. If he decides to leave (for a separation or break) I intend to inform the OH husband so he is aware of the situation.
6. I will be seeking financial and legal advice when I have time to get an app - regarding my position here should we divorce. I think the law is pretty similar here to the UK, i.e. he has to continue supporting me and the children to the same standard as we lived before and everything is split 50/50. When things are calmer I will also ask him to transfer half our savings to me from the sale of our house. I hope he will agree to this.
7. I have come to realise in the last few days that actually most of his stress possibly comes from his relationship with our eldest daughter. I've been very quiet and observing him the last few days, not given him any grief etc - and noticed this very clearly. We are seeking help for her at the moment with a psychologist so when that process has been completed we will hopefully get some help with that - she totally resists our authority and it drives my husband nuts as he's quite authoritarian in his parenting style (something I'm not too comfortable with). I've come to realise he finds parenting very hard and I think this is causing him most of the stress - however he has a family that he can't just walk away from so I hope he/we can find a way to help him with this. His job is stressful then he comes home to lots of problems with the children, then he had me complaining a lot of the time. Sure recipe for a marriage going up the spout!
8. Basically, I'm over the shock - I feel more confident that my life is going the right way and whether he wants to stick it out with me is up to him. I'm going to give it my best shot and try to improve where i was going wrong. I've also found a babysitter in my area so I'm going to suggest we go out from time to time, something we never do.
9. I've also contacted an old friend in the UK via FB who has had marital problems before and she's been helpful to talk to - she has said I can talk to her confidentially anytime.

I'll keep you posted how I get on and THANKS again :) You've all been so kind in supporting a fellow human being going through a hard time. I hope I can also help others on here too in future when I'm a bit more secure again.

I'll get on with sorting out a pension for myself too - he pays into a pension for himself each month so it's not fair that I don't get the same. He's always said it's not worth paying into a private pension but I need something put away for myself. Even if he won't pay for it, when I'm earning I will ensure that my pension is paid first before any other bills :)
I'm building a good network here - I have 6 women coming round to learn sewing later this week so I'm feeling good about that, it's just a social thing but hoping it will give me some confidence to do more.
I just really hope he's willing to make a fresh start and try again. We're trying to book a short break away over Christmas if we can find somewhere that's nice with the children. He's away in London working for a few days so the break between us has been good. He has been in touch with me over text and phone.
Wish me luck everyone, I'm gonna need it!