How do you maintain contact with a compulsive liar?

[Anastasie]

My son's father is a compulsive liar. I have decided this after knowing him for 15 years. It wasn't obvious initially (I was quite naive) but it is very clear now and I think it has become worse over the years.

He is in his 50s.

Our son is 12 and we have been separated since he was a baby, and he started having contact again when ds was about 7, but he kept messing us about and then earlier this year ds had had enough and we went from once a month (which was sporadic in practise) to maybe three or four trips a year to see his paternal grandma.

Now she is moving away quite far to be closer to other family.

Obviously seeing her was great for ds and also meant his dad had to turn up on time, not 'forget', etc (and also be sober) but now I don't know what we should do.

I would like to have no contact with him whatsoever. Almost everything he utters is total crap, he seems unable to stop it, even ridiculous things like telling me his phone was broken, then not answering it when he had asked me to call him, and then I rang his wife and she was .

It's pathetic. I cannot believe anything he says - in fact I only have his word that his mum is moving away, but I think he knows I would find out about that if it wasn't the case so is more careful. (she doesn't seem the type to lie pointlessly and we have, albeit very limited, contact)

I hate the idea of ds meeting up with his father, because his father is likely to take him to a pub, and also will mess him about and so on relentlessly. Also he will lie to him. He lies to everyone all the time, but we are all in separate boxes to facilitate this.

So what would you do? Would you just tell him to fuck off, not to get in touch again, to stay away - or would you try and arrange something and then watch him resist it and mess ds around some more?

What do we do about ds's grandma? It'll be a 150-200 mile journey or so, each way.

Just trying to think ahead, thank you for any suggestions or experiences.

I know he's 12 but does your DS have any thoughts on the matter?

If you just don't contact him would he initiate it? what does your DS think? At 12 he is old enough to make some decisions himself.

If you know where she is moving to you could check train links and then contact GM and ask her if it could be OK for him to visit via train, every now and then?

And that would allow you to check right now whether she actually is moving and to where. (I know you said ' I think he knows I would find out about that if it wasn't the case' but it would still be good to know for certain and set up direct links - especially if your DS was to travel there by himself at any point.)

Mine is a very different situation since it is my brother who lies. Also a very different reason, he lies compulsively because he is an alcoholic. However I do try to maintain an uncle-like relationship with my children, when he is sober.

Some small pointers from me on how to handle lying, if they are helpful to you:

• Don't ask. I never ask my brother a question that requires a truthful answer. If you are never going to believe an answer anyway, why bother stressing yourself and asking at all?

• If he tells me something that carries some obligation or commitment (like I'll see you 6pm Saturday, for example. Or I'll buy your son X, Y, Z for his birthday) then I act and respond as though he is being truthful in order to not cause a fuss, but will completely disregard what is said.

• I never tell my children his plans. I will half-heartedly make sure we are in half an hour each side of when he says he's coming, but without any actual expectation that he will turn up. And without the children being aware that he might (or might not) come.

• I never arrange things for him. I don't place any expectations that he will attend or do anything. I leave him to arrange as much or as little as he wants in terms of visits. Then I take all his plans with a huge pinch of salt. I keep his plans in the back of my mind, but mostly ignore them and go about life as normal but in a way that can accommodate him if he visits as planned.

• Internally, absolve yourself of any responsibility for the lies. Don't waste your time trying to 'catch him out' in a lie, prove he is lying or get him to admit he is lying. Just accept he lies, that you can't do anything about this.

• Accept that you can still have a relationship, without resolving the fact that he lies all the time. He can lie and still be a father (or brother and uncle in my case)

So like I say, mine is a very different situation to yours. But I have a lot of experience with an obsessive and compulsive liar.

Thank you for some very thoughtful and helpful replies.

Ds was the one who decided enough was enough on the monthly visits. He regularly says his dad is an arsehole, which I tell him he doesn't have to say, but we are fairly frank in our house and I don't pretend his dad is being great when he's clearly not. (perhaps wrong of me)

He hasn't expressed anything wrt arrangements in future. He likes to know his dad is out there and they have text contact occasionally, normally initiated by his dad. often it says 'thinking of you, working away so can't see you, hope you're well' sort of stuff. It usually contains something to ensure ds has no expectations at the outset.

In regard to the train thing that would be great when he is a bit older. I think he would manage it well.

I may try and speak to his Grandma when I drop him off in a couple of weeks, though we have never met - i will never meet her if I don't, this time.

Fate, those are some really great ideas. I already do some of them like not taking much that he says seriously - for instance 'can I call round with birthday card and present for ds on such and such date' and I say Ok, knowing he will not have a card or present when he turns up, if he turns up.

And I no longer ask him questions. He contradicts himself constantly and will tell the same rubbish story over and over with different details.

He is also an alcoholic though would never admit to it and insists that he has given up which is patently untrue IMO though I rarely even talk to him these days as it's so pointless and I can't believe anything he says.

We also stopped the arrangement because he would forget, or be late, or if neither was an option he would turn up hungover and probably tbh still drunk. He thought I didn't notice.
He sabotages any promise he makes. His birthday to ds this summer was a toolbox - nice, you say. Well ds called me to ask for help shutting it which was when I realised the whole side was caved in. I had to straighten it out, but realised then why ex hadn't hung about.
There was a padlock for it bought at the last second (nothing was wrapped) which did not fit.
The card had a massive tear in it.

It's bizarre - you could almost think he did it on purpose just to make things wrong. I mean who gives a torn card or a broken gift?

Oh and he put some flip flops in the tool box too, which didn't fit ds, because he doesn't know his shoe size.

The disrespect was palpable.

It's not just disorganisation. It's cruel. I don't see how he CAN be a father, if all he ever does is hurt ds, fail to deliver, and tell lies to him.

From everything you have written here, I think the best thing for your DS and for you is to cut your contact with him as much as possible, without making a big announcement over it.

Just let him do all the initiating, which sadly will probably be very little. But it's better for your DS to just have you (and other members of your family) than to also have his father drunkenly letting him down again and again.

You might want to look into getting DS some counselling. Children of alcoholics can grow up with some massive problems, especially around lying.

Thank you, this is my feeling too - not to provoke by making it official if you like, as that gives him something to fight against, but just not to initiate anything and see what he suggests.

I think ds has always had a few issues around lying - he is dysllexic and processes slowly and so it's sometimes quicker and easier to say what's 'sort of' true than to try and explain it properly, because it is a struggle for him. But that's not because of his dad - we seems sort of not very attached to him, if that makes sense? Like he's a visiting uncle or a family friend or something.

So he has never had that role model. But even so it has been a confusing journey for him, especially when occasionally we would see his dad in a traffic jam or something and I would say Oh it's your dad, and think he would wave at ds, but he didn't, he just drove off and one time ds ran after him down the road. He must have seen him and just kept going, slowly but just too quick for ds to catch up.

He's such a bastard, I can't believe I had a child with him.

Thanks for all your thoughts. I really appreciate it and it has helped loads.

Oh and I'm getting my Dad to drop off ds at the Grandma's so I won't see her, or him, but that's Ok with me. Goodness knows what ex has told her about me, probably a load of complete tripe.

Sorry, my typing is awful today for some reason. he seems, and uhh, dyslexic

I think I'll just let you get on with it, I'm not reporting you. Just carry on. And I really, honestly don't care what you think about me. At all.

Look, if someone I thought was nice said that, I'd be upset. Of course I would. You saying it is kind of predictable because you're a cunt. So it means nothing.

I can't believe you set up an account just to say this, tbh.

Or did it massively bother you that you got banned, and that people were happy about it?

I was mainly pleased that you had admitted being a snidey little troll, instead of faking, because it felt like a victory.

I'm sure you will be back, time and time again, though God knows what you get out of it. Is it the only way you can get anyone to speak to you?

Or do you have a personality disorder? There was another one a bit like you once who had BPD.

*some reason. he seems, and uhh, dyslexic blushsmile

Um, no. You are just uneducated grin*

Btw this doesn't make sense, you seem to be quoting it as a sentence, when it's actually two typo corrections.

Well it looks as if we both feel like we won.

Thank you for the conversation, I like to gather a little insight into your type of behaviour when I can...I don't think this is the first time we've met.

Cheerio for now.

I can have loads of accounts and act however I want

See that sounds like you have father issues. It's really interesting. Most people don't get anything out of having the right to 'do whatever they want', or understand how that would constitute success in someone's life.

They just see it as a very infantile behaviour/reward system. So you must be at least a little bit special.

Gone?

just call me the troll whisperer, I always seem to have that effect...

I think you touched a nerve with her! Signing up every couple of days just to talk to you think she wants to be your friend

Wow, someone is a bit overly interested in you, aren't they!

I just wanted to say that I think, unfortunately, you do need to limit contact as much as you can. We have this problem in my family and it is so hard and confusing for the 9yo to process the constant "well, that's not try

Sorry, phone posted too soon.

"that's not true/Not everything your dad says it's true" message. We used to nod and smile when he quoted his dad's lies, but now he's older he needs to know that some of the more ludicrous things aren't true.

We are worried too that having to explain that someone is lying so often is starting to sort of normalise the act of lying . We are worried about how much of an influence he is having.

I know your DS is older , so this may not be relevant.

Children of alcoholics can grow up with some massive problems, especially around lying.

Hmm my dh has told me some massive lies () and his father was an alcoholic. I honestly had not connected the two but will go away to ponder this.

Sorry to gatecrash!