ExP lies/exaggerates/misleads 8 year old daughter. Am I right to put her straight?

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My ExP makes out he's a great dad and mostly subtly but sometimes blatantly runs me down as a mother.

The latest event concerns when she was a baby. I did virtually everything. He had to be forced to help although he would act like superdad if we had friends or family around.

He has told her about an activity that he did once with her yet he gave her the impression it was something he regularly did and that I never did.

I told her the truth as it was just too untrue for me to let it go and I didn't really give myself time to consider the best response.

I hope she sees through his lies but I worry she doesn't. I don't really know how to respond to his comments.

I'm with the "tell her the truth but don't make a big deal out of it or use it to slag him off" camp. After all, these lies can hurt her, for example if they hurt her relationship with her mother. If one party turns it into a popularity contest between the parents (so, so wrong), how can it be countered fairly when the other party has one hand tied behind her back? (I've been there.)

There's definitely a "people remember things differently" lesson to impart re life in general too. Look at the totally opposite ways news can be reported in two mainstream newspapers with different political outlooks! I don't think 8 is too young for a very basic introduction to the concept.

Is he a gaslighter OP?

My dad is. Initially I just disliked him slagging off my mum. (They divorced when I was very young.) Later, I realised he was lying about things that I'd actually seen myself (not necessarily to do with her). Growing up with those kinds of shifting sands was challenging. It would have been much worse if I had had her also insisting throughout that he was telling the truth. I think I would have lost confidence in myself entirely.

Yes and remain unemotional. She will be more upset by your anger than she will by hearing facts.

Just adding my voice to the camp advising you to correct what he is telling her. As pps have said, you can do this without being angry / over-emotional - "daddy is remembering that wrongly, in fact what happened was...". If it's a frequent occurrence maybe you could suggest/joke with her that he doesn't have a very good memory at all! Try and keep it light, but definitely don't let it go.

He's gaslighting her, and is setting her up for a world of confusion where she doesn't know what's real and what's not in her own life. It's a dangerous game to play.

My own XP had this from his own mother and had a complete drug related breakdown - when he was heavily medicated in hospital, a whole cacophony tumbled out in relation to his childhood. The superficially unimportant but inherently manipulative tales told to him by his mum were designed to make him think "mum good, dad bad", but ended up almost destroying him. He's now got an unhealthy dependency on his mother and very fractured relationship with his dad. He lives in a fantasy world and lies to and manipulates everyone around him.

Your dd deserves the truth about her own life and her dad's role in it - imo it would be irresponsible and dangerous to her mental health to allow her to take the things her dad is telling her at face value.

My god quickbrownfox. That terrifies me.

Another voice agreeing with pps who advise to contradict the fallacies. It is gaslighting as thequickbrownfox stated, and the person (whether they be male, in this, or female in other situations) are being knowingly abusive.

I remember a post once (I've forgotten by whom sadly as I would like to thank them) that stated words to the effect of, 'you don't have to protect, show any loyalty to, or respect, those that harm your children'. I have never forgotten the gist of those words and the effect they had on me.

When you choose to abuse malleable, and therefore emotionally vulnerable, children by your actions, your words and their weighted adult expectations, then you've lost any right to have your motivations or feelings catered to or colluded with.

I have bitten my tongue so hard at times I could scream, and sadly due to the terrible pressures I have gone beyond the levels of adult behaviour that I would normally maintain in a perfect world in response to the downright laughable and completely damaging false claims made by my ExH to our Dc.

You can't control what they take to their adult lives from their childhood, but you can say you didn't lie to them.

Bingo about the gaslighting. I think it's critically important, especially for girl children, to teach them EARLY about what emotional abuse tactics look like. They almost undoubtedly will encounter them at some point in their lives, and it's best to know what it looks like--and how to be confident in your own perception and understanding of the world, in spite of gaslighting.

Always the facts of the situation, basic and age appropriate. Preferably without emotion.
I learnt this the hard way with mine, they understand more. There's no point feeding an illusion that will eventually shatter - especially when they are doing the exact opposite to you and are trying to play games and point score (probably because they know you won't be honest)

Please don't feel bad about correcting her view of him.

DH and his sibs were fed a lot of cobblers about their dad. He was violent (well, she was the one who threw knives at him); he spent all of her money (yes, he once jokingly swapped pay packets, he earned 4 times what she did and gave her all of his wages. She thought it was cute and it became their normal way of spending); he left them without a backward glance (yes, she told him it would be easier for the kids -- and then drove them to his 1 bed flat every Friday night for 8 years).

The stuff in brackets I know because, many years later when she mellowed and realised what a bitch she had been she told me how horrified she was that, whereas DH has a good relationship with his dad, the other 2 believed what she had said and nothing she now said would change their minds. They hate him so much that when she died they proclaimed themselves to be orphans. Their dad is still alive and makes regular attempts at contact (he is 78 this year, they are all 50+).

You need to leave her with an age appropriate understanding, maybe laughing at daddy's poor memory would be OK. Also telling him that it is not you he is annoying, but DD is finding his stories upsetting and confusing.

WombOfOnesOwn Yes, it is critically important. I have come to my own conclusion that (the message and themes in) Lundy Bancroft's 'Why Does ...' should be taught in the curriculum. (This does not mean handing the book over to 5 year olds obviously, but perhaps as a much wider tool to explore the (very clear classifications and methods of abusive behaviour) ways in which young children and young adults can be made to distrust and ignore their own valid feelings and emotions.

Another one if favour of the unemotional truth. I had to let my dd know a bit about her father's feet of clay as he was inclined to make huge promises and never think they meant he had to carry them out.

He wasn't good with her as a child anyway, but fortunately they have a great relationship as adults as long as my dd remembers not to believe his promises.

Using the example in your OP, rather than go into any details about his level of involvement, I would have regaled her with stories and anecdotes of your time spent doing the activity with her. That way you can demonstrate he was talking bullshit without having to say it.

I know it's hard (DD's Dad made up shit so he didn't look bad) but you really need to develop a strategy for combating this, as 'setting the record straight' could confuse her and trap her in a 'he said, she said' struggle. She will learn eventually that he's a bit of fantasist and in the long run, it will be better for your relationship with her, if she came to this conclusion herself. Fortunately for me, I don't have to practice detaching from DD's Dad, as he was forced to terminate contact with DD to protect his mental health and my physical well being.

Tackle her lies now and discipline appropriately, she needs to understand the consequences of lying, most notability the loss of trust other people have in her.

Good luck.

Yes...Tell the truth, gently and matter of factly. This is not slagging off.

'Hm, Daddy seems to have forgotten' will do as a contradiction, if needed.

If he tells lies that make himself look good, it's none of your business. It's between her and her dad and that's their relationship now. If you tell her he's lying you will hurt and confuse her. It's different if he tells direct lies about you - then you are very free to correct what he has said with the truth, without putting a judgment on him. What you have written sounds like cheap point scoring and aggro with an ex - he said he did that activity all the time when he didn't - big fucking deal, it's hardly important stuff is it? You've corrected her because it annoyed you and that's really unfair to her. Take that sort of thing up with your ex if you must but leave her out of your fucking petty squabbles.

ThisIsStillFolkGirl makes a good point, 'talk to her about telling the truth, why people lie...people do it because they wish they had done it and so by saying it, it becomes the truth for them; people do it because they want the person they are saying it to like them more/think better of them; and some people do it because they're just not very nice people and don't care that they're lying'.

She was referring to common maturational behaviour of 8 year olds ForChina, not a grown man, though the explanations are still relevant at any age. You say that it's none of the OPs business if he's telling lies to their daughter that make him look good. Could you expand on that please? As an adult, I've never taken credit for someone else's 'work' - so I'm not sure why it would be acceptable within a parent/child relationship where the balance of power and influence is so weighted in favour of the parent.

In her first post the OP states that 'The latest event', so clearly not a one off. Maybe she can't take it up with her Ex, maybe it's not a 'fucking petty squabble', and maybe yes, it is important.

I've been that child stuck in the middle and believe me this is ALL about the parents and not about the child. The mother did not correct her daughter because she felt it was best, or because she felt that this issue was so important, she corrected her because she felt annoyed that the dad was taking 'credit' for the activity that SHE did with the little girl ffs. I think it's safe to assume the little girl can't even remember the activity, so it does her no harm whatsoever to think that Daddy did that and yes I do very much consider it to be a fucking petty squabble when they're talking about something that he said he did that he didn't do (or only did once) when the child was too young to remember. If the mother really feels so strongly about it then the person to talk to is the dad, not the child. All you do by correcting the child is confuse and upset her, and possibly make her feel like she has to choose between her parents - Daddy says one thing, Mummy says another - who to believe? That is horrible parenting and so damaging. The parents should deal with their issues and leave her out of it.

I get your personal experience and relevance to the thread ForChina I do, as I'm also only posting from my own experience (which is the polar opposite to be fair).

I hope that I'm looking at the issue the Op posted from the very widest of views, and not assuming that the 'petty' issue that the Ops child may, or may not remember, is the whole sum of the Ops frustration and worry. If the Op returns they may provide more troubling, or less concerning, information that would clarify the situation. Currently we can only respond as we see fit from what has already been posted.

To say that the Op should just '...deal with (their) issues' is unfair though, and relies on two adults being able to communicate without prejudice, but as one appears already predicated towards telling lies to 'make him(self) look good', it's maybe not as easy as one would suppose?

I think your daughter deserves the (unemotionally-spoken) truth.

I don't think you'll do her any favours at all by letting her believe his lies. If you think that truth and honesty and accuracy has any value, then you need to keep to the age-appropriate version of that as much as you can.

Relationships built over a foundation of lies are neither real nor fair to the child. Sometimes they can have some worth -anyway- but if the full truth comes out later then your daughter will feel betrayed by you, because you could have told her how things really stand and didn't.

I'd say never react in anger, bite your tongue, breath to ten and then say gently 'well actually that's not quite what happened, this is what happened. Daddy must have forgotten / made a mistake ".

She will gradually adjust to realising that Daddy isn't reliable and it might come easier than the awful let down that happens when you realise as an adult that little of your parent's stories are true or can be relied on. It sucks to know that what you thought as a child was 'true' and 'reliable' ... was all an illusion.

Hi,

There is a lot to really take in. Thanks everyone for your comments. I appreciate all viewpoints. Things have kicked off again.

He was spoiling for an argument and last weekend it erupted when I dropped my daughter off at his house. He had a raised-voice monologue going for about an hour and in the end I walked out. It was supposed to be a simple drop off.

He was 'apologising' - but not a real apology- for being a shit partner and dad but then started on about all my faults - which are the reason he was such a shit partner and dad -. It got fairly nasty. I tried to get him to stop but he wasn't calming down.

There is so much venom in him towards me. I can't figure out what I'v done to deserve it. His life seems great - new relationship, new house soon, promotion at work, I don't understand his anger. He's saying - my life is great now and it was so shit when I was with you. He's just raking up the past and rubbishing everything.

He's now only going to be seeing our daughter twice a month instead of every weekend - his choice not mine. I heard this from our daughter when she got back home to me afterwards. So at least he can't pin that on me. She seems ok with this and I think I am too. I like having time off on my own but I think I'm happier he spends less time with her.

He does the disney dad when he has her and I think he's finding it a bit hard to maintain.

Everything is very raw at the moment

Don't want to hijack your post so might start my own but my DH (we are on the brink of separating) is such a liar and I totally relate to this anger they have towards you but you don't know why??

The lies are so hard to deal with because really how can you and my DH also seems to believe what he says.

I am coming to the conclusion the only way to deal with him is basically not to.

Think I better start my own thread and good luck!

So sorry, that must have been shit. You said in a pp that you think he likes to gets a rise out of you by upsetting you. This is another proof that it's true. He won't stop until you show him that you no longer give a shiny shit about what he thinks. Practice calm, deep breathing. You don't want to stomp out or burst into tears if he starts in. That's what he wants! A simple eye roll or sign and "Well, this is all well trodden ground isn't it? You've said this all so many times before that it's actually getting a bit boring. I'll pick up DD at XXX (or whatever the arrangements are). Goodbye".

Next time (hopefully there won't be one) remember that you do NOT have to listen to him. You can get up and leave (or put down the phone) the very second he crosses the line into verbally abusing you. Because that's what it is, this rehashing the past with his own 'spin' on it, it's abuse. You don't need to listen, nor do you need to defend yourself. Both would be a waste of your precious time. You know what your truth is, regardless of what he thinks.

The reason he does it is that he actually feels guilt (I know, surprise!) and absolutely has to resolve it by pushing the blame on you. And perhaps this 'new life' he has isn't actually as wonderful as he thought it would be! One's 'dream' is always better than reality, isn't it? Not to say he wants to get back together, I'm sure not. It's just that many people think that their life after divorce will be perfect, only to find out that it's not.

Across the Pond.

I think you've read the situation pretty accurately.

I wish he loved our daughter less because it is so hard to facilitate her seeing him and being forced to deal with his shit.

I think the last confrontation has clarified my feelings. I think my love for him has really taken a hit this time. I want nothing more to do with him.

Would third party handoffs be a possibility or perhaps him picking up at grandparents or another relative? Or would he keep quiet if a friend or relative went with you to drop her off?

How much 'facilitating' do you do? Maybe you should do less and let HIM worry about arrangements for awhile?

I wish he loved our daughter less because it is so hard to facilitate her seeing him and being forced to deal with his shit.

You have my sympathies OP. He already loves your daughter less if he has told her he only wants to see her twice a month and not every weekend.

And I agree with Across the Pond, it sounds like the guilt talking.

Just leave it. She'll make her own decisions when she's older and she'll thank you for not trying to sway her.