How to support DH as he deals with PIL

[josephwrightofderby]

NC but regular.

To cut a long story short:

• we see PIL 3-4 times a year for a weekend. They live 5 hours' drive away
• they are well meaning at heart but they are extremely domineering. Everything is always 'their way' and there are many, many quirks of behaviour that are quite dominant, e.g. they speak extremely loudly, constantly interrupt with slightly patronising comments, and never listening.
• They are also extremely emotionally manipulative and passive-aggressive about getting what they want
• DH's reaction to them is very anxious, to the point that he will sometimes be physically sick and unable to get out of bed with stomach pains. At first, I thought this was coincidental, but it is a recurring pattern.
• He is at the same time extremely anxious about saying 'no' to them (definitely in the FOG)
• As they get older, they are pushing for longer visits. This coincides with an increase in DH's workload and seniority at work, which makes those visits more difficult to fit in and more tiring to deal with. Over the past 2 years he has become ill with a cold after every single visit because they are so stressful and he is already pushed beyond the limits with his professional workload.
• I understand the need for a relationship on both sides and am completely supportive of this. However, I am endeavouring to find compromises that mean we can see them regularly without the attendant fuss and stress, e.g. piggybacking on their visits to BIL (2 hours' drive towards them) and seeing them for a day more regularly but for a shorter stretch of time.
• They are less happy about this, and respond with emotional manipulation, e.g. 'We must see you - we never see you - it's not fair - you're always putting work before family' etc
• DH is increasingly worried about their reactions and seems less and less capable of standing up to them. He did see a counsellor about this issue a few years back, but this resulted in only a very brief improvement.
• The whole dynamic is trapped in a passive/passive-aggressive/aggressive mode, with no assertiveness at all.

What can I do to help and support him? I have tried speaking to him about this, explaining FOG, suggesting a counsellor, suggesting assertiveness training. He just looks at me like a rabbit in the headlights and then suggests that we just go along with it to keep the peace. This makes me feel awful, like I am putting him under still more pressure. But at the same time, I KNOW that a visit from parents shouldn't result in physical vomiting!

Suggestions?

Oh, crucial thing I missed out (sorry) - DH was badly bullied by them at home as a kid. FIL was violent and ragey. He was also bullied at school, perhaps partly because his whole MO had become quite passive.

In spite of this (or perhaps, in part, because of his ability to use non-aggressive means to get what he wants), he manages to cope with quite a senior role.

He is still really afraid of his parents and they are still on at him to comply with their demands. He is probably on some level still wanting their approval as well, approval which they will never give him.

Re your comment:-
"I understand the need for a relationship on both sides and am completely supportive of this".

Is there really a need for a relationship on both sides?.

You likely come from a family of origin which thankfully is emotionally healthy. Unfortunately for him (understatement) he does not. This is a one sided relationship purely on their terms. These people were not emotionally healthy parents to him as a child and such people do not change. Theirs is a dysfunctional and unhealthy relationship; there simply cannot be a relationship of equals on both sides. They still have their son dancing to their tune and this relationship is still very much about power and control. I actually think it will do your DH a great deal of good to consider completely curtailing all visits to them and with an ultimate aim of having no contact with them.

After a lifetime of such conditioning at their hands its of no real surprise that he is finding it almost impossible to stand up for his own self. His inertia is now simply hurting his own self further as well as his own family unit.

He is very much still enmeshed in FOG, will he consider now seeing a different counsellor?. It may also be an idea for you to look at and post on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages and for your DH to read the resources at the start of that thread.

You can't do this for him. You can really only flag it up to him and offer him space to address it himself. It does sound like he has a responsibility to get some help as this is clearly placing the whole family under pressure. But it does need to be him doing something for him.

I would encourage him to seek counselling and wouldn't be encouraging visits to them, or indeed going with him very often at all.

If they are not rude to you, and if you can take it, you could start taking the phone calls for him. And each time he is not home ( whether true or not).

Then you can be the one to say that you are all busy and can make the trip this time.

In the mean time, pass on the information off the stately homes thread and when he is ready, he could even read it.

It is a long and horrible process for him and any interference you do will be helpful

Can't make the trip, not can

Thank you all so much. I think you are right that education/reading may be a really helpful thing for him to do.

There is absolutely no way he would even consider going NC. He just looks at me and says 'I love them - they are my parents'. And it really is his decision so I can't push it or make it for him, can I? (I do agree that a period away from them where he gets counselling would be beneficial, but I don't know how to make that happen).

Part of the problem is that he is the archetypal people-pleaser with them. So he will just go along with whatever because he feels obliged. The idea that he shouldn't be made ill by these visits - that it's not OK that he is pushed beyond limits - doesn't even occur to him. At the same time, he is unable to be truly open with them. I suggest things he should say, e.g. explaining to his parents WHY we can't do visits in October and WHY his job is busy at that time of year. And then he just ignores it. I feel like it's almost unfair to them, in that they are in the dark about the pressures, so their pushiness is more forgiveable. I do not understand why he finds it hard simply to be straight with them like this. He copes with all kinds of controversial and difficult situations at work, yet put these two older people in front of him and he is just like a rabbit in the headlights.

I think I probably need to change my attitude too. I tend to hover in the background, getting angry at their attitudes and demands. Whenever we have a visit with them, they want to arrange the next visit immediately, and I hate this - I dread it so much and I feel like their presence is hanging over us the whole time. I realise that I can't just run away from it, though, and that I am being unreasonable.

I am also finding myself getting frustrated and angry with him for not putting boundaries in place, particularly in terms of the way they treat me which is incredibly patronising and rude. Sometimes I feel manipulated into these visits. Like this summer, we agreed that we would do a visit in July instead of October, because October is insanely busy. And now we have done the July visit, the October visit is back on again. And I feel like this wasn't the agreement! But at the same time, I can see how much he is struggling with it all, and I don't want to put him under pressure. I need to stand up for myself a bit more, I think.

Thought! Do you think he fails to be open with his parents because it creates the space to make excuses for them? (Not deliberately, but maybe subconsciously?)

I quite often feel like their behaviour is very self-interested. They are rude and insensitive in ways that benefit them. But they come over as so heavy-footed in social situations that everyone makes excuses for their.

Being open would either force them to change, or would reveal their behaviour to be selfish. So perhaps they try to close him down and he is unwilling to challenge that????

I think you need to stand up for yourself too, because if you don't you'll be run ragged and live your life their way instead of your own. People rarely change as they get older, they only become more themselves.

You know that this will cause huge ructions and put a lot of strain on your relationship though. But the alternative is to knuckle under.

Your husband -does- need to break free of them in the end.

Something of a dark warning here but until you have reached a way of living with them that you can endure, think very carefully about having children. Their pressure and emotional manipulation will treble when grandchildren come along and your husband has not yet shown any signs at all of being able to stand up for you or protect you from them.

By the way, are you quite sure they are 'well meaning' as you put in your original post? They sound to me like people who are bullies and who get off on pushing their way over everyone else . It's just that their methods are subtler now he's older.

Practical hints:

state what you want, keep stating it. Be a broken record, not getting drawn into arguments. Just state your position over and over.

Decide what you can compromise on and what you can't, and keep strong on that. You can't compromise on everything or you'll end up a doormat.

Prepare to be seen as the Bad Guy. You aren't; you know you aren't; they will do eveyrthing they can to blame you though.

At its very worst, be aware that if their influence is too strong, your husband will be on their side and you will be fighting him too, to try to open his eyes and to try to lend him the stamina that he so badly needs to stand up to them.

Remember, you did not pick this fight. But everyone is entitled to have their own rock to stand on. What's that saying, something like "being assertive is stating your own needs. Being aggressive is trying to get your own needs at the expense of other people". They are aggressive, covertly but still aggressive. You are assertive.

Meerka - thank you so much. I am shaking reading your advice. I know that what you say is true. Thank you for holding my hand.

About the well-meaning thing. I don't think they are either well-intentioned or badly-intentioned. I think they are just raw, plain selfish. Do you see what I mean? It is not like there is any manipulation or intent there. It is just their way, every single time.

I realise - fully - that this makes them people who have a crucial piece missing. There is a yawning chasm where there should be empathy and consideration of others. However, it is hard to describe it as 'evil' because it is so blind.

(Don't worry, I am not excusing them. It would not actually strengthen my position on the subject to say that they were 'bad people'. I KNOW that what they are doing is unacceptable. And I am not willing to give them the get-out of cluelessness that they would get if this were reduced to a good/bad intentions. For YEARS this has been the excuse made for them: 'Oh, but they MEAN well'. DH says it. BIL says it. And I have reached a point where I say 'I don't actually CARE how they mean, because it's not really relevant. What is relevant is the fact that their behaviour is bullying. Whether they intend to be bullies is entirely beside the point.').

I find this very, very personally difficult because my own family is very dysfunctional and I don't have support. Something about the way they behave seems to trigger something very deep inside me and I can't cope at all. My reaction used to be just mildly anxious but it is now off-the-scale. When I am trapped in their house for four days over a weekend, I feel a sense of absolute and sheer panic. I feel that I can't push back, that I can't be seen or make myself heard, that I am simply stuck. I feel like I am suffocating. PIL insist that everything is done together, and that we are always doing something - so we have to run around the local stately homes all day every day (yes, they are lifelong National Trust members) and then eat out and it is literally 14 hours of their company straight without respite, day after day. Not only that, but the auditory space is taken up by their incessant (and I do mean incessant) verbalization while our movement through actual space constantly constrained by a constant level of fuss and mobility issues. There are times when I am on the verge of just taking off and sprinting as hard as I can because I just want to feel like ME again, to feel free.

I cannot actually remember anything about visits because I just blank it out (I have form for doing this with anything I find hard). DH says 'We visited this place' and I honest to God don't even remember ever having seen it. There are times when I am verging on hysterical, like some kind of repressed character in a nineteenth century novel. This isn't normal is it? What do I do to fix myself? Being more assertive has to be part of it.

'For YEARS this has been the excuse made for them: 'Oh, but they MEAN well'. DH says it. BIL says it. And I have reached a point where I say 'I don't actually CARE how they mean, because it's not really relevant. What is relevant is the fact that their behaviour is bullying. Whether they intend to be bullies is entirely beside the point.''

Spot on. Totally spot on. It actually doesn't matter why they behave the way they do - the point is that they are stressing you out and being unreasonable demanding.

I'm from a dysfunctional family too and my PILs are also a lot like yours. I'm almost having a panicky reaction myself to the mere thought of being in their company for a 14 hour day with no break at all. Parents like this are called 'engulfing' - there is no appropriate distinction in their minds between themselves and their (adult) child. They don't do boundaries or space. This is not reasonable and not something you should just have to put up with.

Being more assertive - absolutely. I know DH is choosing to go on these godawful days out but do you have to? You're not a child - you're allowed to spend your time as you choose. Talk to your DH - you do not have to keep on endlessly putting up with mad things because your DH wants a quiet life.

I cannot recommend psychotherapy highly enough. I know you said your DH wouldnt' consider therapy for himself but I honestly think it would be brilliant for you. Its changed my life. You get to understand so much more about yourself and why you react to things in the way you do. Those panicky, hysterical feelings you describe? I used to be full of them but they're now about 10% of the intensity and the frequency that they used to be. I understand my feelings, I know I have a right to my feelings and I am so very much better at standing up for myself. Seriously - best thing I've ever. The most painful as well, at times, but absolutely so worth it.

I think lotta's got a good plan there, to say that you're not going on some days.

If that's too hard, then start off by something smaller. But be aware, that they will hate you saying no.

ALso remember - they will scream and shout and whine and redouble pressure just like very big toddlers do. In the end, if you stay strong, the storm will pass. But it =is= going to be a big and long storm.

I think that assertiveness training and / or CBT therapy might help you a lot. There's clearly a very big practical problem here, but your mind and your fear from previous bad family experience is working to weaken your own very very reasonable and normal adult desires to be ... surprise ... your own person with your own needs and wishes.

Was it completely chance that you happened to hook up with a person who also came from a very disfunctional family?

Unmumsnetty hug, remember, you are entitled to a normal life where you and your husband compromise with your PILs, not get steamrollered by them!

Meerka is right - they will hate you saying no. However, keep in mind that nothing is ever good enough for these people anyway so you can never get it quite right whatever you do. You may as well please yourself!

Oooooo "engulfing". That is what it's like. It is like being erased, somehow, turned into a unit that is just shoved around in their game.

Whenever this comes up, I feel this insane need to justify myself. There is a voice in my head that says 'You marry a person, you marry their family'.

I simultaneously feel really contradictory things. Like, on the one, hand, I feel that I am a bad person for insisting on my selfhood, that I should just tolerate it and be patient. And right at the same time, I feel angry that I am being a pushover, and especially angry with DH for not 'protecting' me. I recognise that neither of these is fair to me or to those around me and that both represent passive/aggressive ways of thinking that are not actually assertive.

I hear you on therapy. I had CBT a while ago, but it was really useless. It just left me more angry and confused than before. It was like having everything that seemed important 'bracketed' to be told that if I just stick to a routine in the day, everything will be fine. Well, it's not. I am not fine. And no amount of day-scheduling or responsibility-pie chart creating is going to sort me out. I feel like I need to have a really, really long cry.

Someone I almost revere wrote "the only cure for weeping is tears".

Is real, skilled therapy (rather than a 6 week sticking plaster) an option?

Also, it might help to write down how you think they are going to react, the nuts and bolts of it, and then to literally plan how you are going to deal with it. Break it down into small bites. It's a lot more manageable then.

I am no expert on CBT but it seems to me that having the experience of a dysfunctional family leaves you with emotional scars that demand a much more in depth treatment style. I can well imagine that all CBT did was start to prise the lid off a box of very painful emotions, but then left you feeling all stirred up with nowhere to turn.

With psychotherapy, you would be looking at slow steady progress, sometimes feeling worse before you feel better, but you should feel very well supported through it. You would be looking at years of work rather than months or weeks

I think you might find CAT (Cognitive Analytical Therapy) a better model for you OP. Although bear in mind that a strong bond with your therapist is more important than the precise therapeutic model.

Oh, and speaking as the child of an engulfing parent, it is so important to pre-empt, pre-empt, pre-empt the difficult situations rather than find yourself in reactive mode.

I was in this situation too, also with the long weekend visits. My husband did not understand why I got stressed, and my PILs complained that I was unsociable if I tried to get out of their presence for half an hour by reading a book or something. I was left feeling like I was being horrible if I complained, as they also weren't being intentionally unpleasant. I think my husband also saw it as me being unreasonable and hating his parents, and I' m not sure I could have changed his mind on that one.

I can see it from his point of view, too, as my mother is difficult, and we children also mostly try just to keep her "happy", as anything else just makes things worse.

On the other hand, now my MIL died, and my husband had an affair, making my FIL less domineering towards me. Perhaps as I was so angry about the affair that I no longer tolerated his behaviour and got snappy without caring if he thought I was horrible or not. We actually get along a lot better now. So I'm wondering if, in fact, being horrible and stirring up their crap is actually the way to go ... maybe it makes things better in the long term.

I do long-term analytical therapy, and get on well with my therapist, who I chose as I liked the look of her picture on her website , and I'm a lot less afraid of dealing with my own mother as a result - it has magically taken a lot of the stress/guilt away. I'm not cured, but she doesn't have that hold over me any more. I'd recommend trying more, different therapy rather than giving up because one type hasn't helped.

ravenmum, you make a very good point about fear. Fear is a huge legacy of parents like this, as well as obligation and guilt. It is utterly terrifying to start standing up to parents like this, because you've never been allowed to really grow up, so you're stuck in the mode of a petrified little child who fears abandonment and no longer having parental approval. They have brainwashed you into always putting their needs before yours, and have made clear (perhaps unconsciously) that their love is totally conditional on you behaving in a certain way, and the fear of abandoment and judgement can be absolutely crippling.

I'm nearly 36 and its only been in the past 2 years or so that I've stopped being terrified of my parents. Like you, I got there through therapy. I started drawing my own boundaries and saying no, and standing up for myself, and being much less available, and you know what - the sky didn't fall in! It was extremely empowering and has done absolute wonders for my self respect. I really can't imagine ever getting there without therapy though.

Well done, Lottapianos