Not sure what to do about my dad

[yearofthemonkey]

Some other threads have got me thinking about issues with my dad. Have name changed. Sorry it's long, there's a lot of back story.

I'm an only child. DF could be quite passive aggressive and temperamental. People found him intelligent, funny, charismatic etc, which he was, but if he was in a bad mood it was his family's fault/problem. We always tried to keep him happy. Used to think he was a decent guy who could just be a bit grumpy but when do you stop calling that and start calling it abuse?

He didn't hit my mum, though he could be very shitty and scathing to her. He smacked me occasionally when I was little. It was very common then (80s) and he only did it occasionally but it was never about rules and consequences, just him losing his temper. He'd apologise and say he hadn't wanted to hit me but I should count myself lucky as he used to get much worse. DM claimed to be against smacking but never intervened (she never felt able to stand up to him about anything) and if I complained she said things like "well you were being very difficult" or "you could see he was getting cross", probably trying to justify it to herself.

I was quite a timid kid. When I got older and started disagreeing with him and complaining when I thought he was unreasonable he couldn't stand it. Used to yell at me a lot, kind of round on me and really shout, sometimes grab my arm in a really aggressive way, slapped me round the face a couple of times, once threw a coffee cup at my head. He'd complain about me to DM who never stuck up for me and would tell me not to antagonise him or "you know he gets stressed". It was, supposedly, all fine until I pissed him off. He hit me with his belt once, when I was about 14. I had done something really bad on that occasion, but again it wasn't really about consequences, just him being angry.

I never thought any of this was abuse because I had friends whose parents were horrible to them or beat them up and me, well, I lived in a nice house, I loved my parents, I did lots of nice things with them, I only got the belt that one time, it was normal to get shouted at sometimes; I've never posted about it on here because I figure people will say, get over yourself, some people actually had it tough. But it made me feel kind of worthless. And sometimes the good times weren't always so good, like we'd go on holiday and tell everyone how lovely it was, not mentioning the night where my dad stormed off halfway through dinner and my mum insisted we follow him. My parents had quite high expectations of me and I never felt able to confide in them about worries or problems.

After I went to university, my parents' marriage limped on for a bit but they split up when I was in my early 20s. DM was very needy for a while, turning to me for emotional support, which was hard. She phoned a lot. I had (probably unsurprisingly) ended up in an abusive relationship. When that ended she wanted me to move home and made me feel quite guilty about not doing so (supposedly because of work but really because I couldn't face being her emotional support). She has since got a new partner which came as a pleasant surprise as it was someone I knew and liked. I still find her a bit draining at times, but I get on well with my stepdad. In fact he's the only person in my life who actually acts like a parent a lot of the time.

After the divorce, DF went through phases of wanting to spend lots of time with me, and phases of just falling off the face of the earth. One night he started yelling at me that I'd always been ungrateful and I didn't appreciate anything he'd done for me. I walked out and phoned my now-DH (who isn't abusive, he's lovely) in tears to pick me up. I haven't actually seen my dad since. He has since remarried as well (we didn't go) and moved abroad. After DD was born and he found out via other family members, he got in touch asking if it would be okay if he sent a gift for her. I said yes and he sent some nice things. He also sent Christmas and birthday presents, which I was okay with, but I've refused his requests to talk to us on Skype, and I've refused his offers to pay for us to go and stay over there.

I haven't told friends about the details, because I feel guilty about keeping his only grandchild away from him, and it all sounds quite trivial compared to what some people endured in childhood. Most people were yelled at and smacked once in a while. There's a lot about him that I love and miss, but it's the relationship dynamic that I'm worried about. I don't want my own DD to think that's okay! I don't know how I could spend time with my dad without that dynamic being there - keeping him happy, worrying about him losing his temper - because it has always been there and I don't know how to change it.

Recently my stepmum (who I've never actually met) emailed me, saying my dad is heartbroken that he's missing out on his only grandchild, that he doesn't know what he's done wrong. I haven't replied. I don't know if I should. I don't know what to do. Am I making a big deal out of nothing and being horrible keeping his only grandchild away from him? Or am I just being selfish and ungrateful? Is there any way I could have a different kind of relationship with him now? Any advice very much appreciated. Sorry this is so very long and thank you very much if you got this far.

I don't know if I should.

In my opinion, you shouldn't. The relationship between your dad and stepmum is theirs to manage. If she doesn't like how upset he is, then she needs to solve it in a way that's not making you do something you don't want to do.

He abused you physically on at least one occasion (probably more), and he abused you emotionally.

I have a controlling dad. Some of the violence was bad. Other times it wasn't so bad. The controlling was always bad, but he doesn't see it that way. He sees it as wanting the best for me and trying to help me to learn how to behave (I was a pretty good kid). I should be grateful that he did the best job he was able to, apparently.

I went very low contact about 18 months ago. I drop a card in on his birthday, but I don't reply to phone calls or texts. He doesn't see me or my children. I'm not convinced that he actually wants to see us for our own sakes - I think he wants us when we reflect well on him. I'm not up for that, and I'm not allowing my children to be used in such a way. So we don't see him, and I'm fine with that.

Ultimately, if parents want their children to spend time to them and relate to them in a nice way, then they have to be at the very least pleasant to them. Nobody is obligated to stay in contact with anyone for any amount of time, so perhaps don't beat them and make them feel shitty about themselves.

My dad didn't manage that, and it sounds as though yours didn't either.

FWIW, I also don't feel my dad is as bad as other parents I've heard about. Though he does try to manipulate me still, it's only on rare occasions. He doesn't come to my house or phone daily the way other narcissistic parents do. Mostly I'm ignored right back, which is actually fine. I have been told repeatedly that Grandma (his mother) has only weeks to live so I really ought to visit, but as I was first told that 3 years ago and she has avoided shuffling of the mortal coil since then, I have decided to take all of this with a pinch of salt. Yes, one day she'll die. She was the source of the abuse, so I've distanced myself there too.

Anyhow from what I can tell, a whole heap of us don't think our parents are the worst they've heard of. I think it's a part of the FOG. Our instincts to protect the parent is huge, particularly when we weren't protected ourselves so we compensate for that.

Sorry - I'll stop rambling now. Good luck with it all though.

I can't tell you how grateful and relieved I am to read this as I was fully expecting to be told I was being ridiculous.

Thank you for saying this in particular:

"Ultimately, if parents want their children to spend time to them and relate to them in a nice way, then they have to be at the very least pleasant to them."

As an only child there's a lot of pressure!

"Our instincts to protect the parent is huge, particularly when we weren't protected ourselves so we compensate for that."

I hadn't thought of it like this, really interesting, thank you.

I think it would be different if he acknowledged what was wrong in the past. It's him playing the victim that I'm struggling with. He also sees it as wanting the best for me etc but I'm not sure he's quite able to actually think of me as a person in my own right.

Yeah, Dad has a victim complex too. It often goes with the territory of NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). He was, eventually, told to back down by my mum, who had always previously attempted to shield him from me (they are also separated). In the end, she told him that I'd had a serious illness, had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and had spent several months plotting suicide and fighting those feelings and I need space to recover without him being involved. So he needs to get over it.

He's taken this to mean that my utterly awful behaviour (of not talking to him) is entirely the fault of my illness, and that I'm mad, so he's done nothing wrong at all.

On the one hand, as long as he leaves me alone, I'm fine with him thinking that. It's not like he'd ever take responsibility anyhow, so this might be the only way of getting him out of my life. On the other hand, the lack of self-awareness and accepting of his faults doesn't half rankle.

But it's never, ever going to happen. He believes he is saintly in a world full of ingrates. Nothing will ever shake that belief.

If you haven't already, check out the Stately Homes thread. There are a lot of people with similar stories there, and there is also a huge header with loads of resources to tap into to help with this sort of thing.

You are far from alone. Not only are you not alone, but a whole heap of people recognise the problem to be so prevalent, they've written books about it.

OP, this isn't particularly helpful as I don't have advice, but I just want you to know that you're not alone in terms of finding it difficult to categorise your childhood as abusive/not abusive.

When reading your post it sounded identical to my dad when I was a kid. Smacking happened but in anger rather than as a measured response, he would often storm off and mum would do the 'well you did wind him up', everyone was always on egg-shells in case he decided to get cross about something. He was a thrower of stuff (not at me, but still scary) and, as I got older and more argumentative, would hit out at me and scream at me. He has alcohol issues which were often (but not always) interwoven with this stuff. Mum minimised a lot of it (he was the same with her) and he was definitely emotionally abusive.

When I was 17 my dad was diagnosed with a disability which has now left him in a wheelchair. I left home around that time and didn't see much of him. Nowadays he is what my mum calls 'mellowed'. He doesn't have the energy to scream and shout and is actually a bit nicer to be around.

That said, he definitely still has the ability to be EA. I hear him speak to my mum (and admittedly, it is frustrating for him, he is in a wheelchair) when she's doing things and there are days where everything is wrong, she's stupid, a fucking idiot, she doesn't know what she's doing, she's a waste of space. I am now with (my lovely) DH and when we are at their house and Dad is in one of those moods it's very difficult. On our last overnight trip about a month ago, we were talking (calmly) about the election. I said something about Scotland and out of nowhere came 'you don't know anything, shut up you fucking bitch' - in front of DH and my mum.

We don't have DCs yet, and I have to admit it would make me cagey to be around him if we did. I don't want any DCs of ours to hear that sort of thing, and besides, DH might well confront him if he did. DH keeps quiet as he accepts it's my issue to handle but don't know if that would extend to kids! On the other hand, perhaps me walking calmly out of the room would model how to behave in life when confronted by idiots. Dad is actually quite nice to be around these days when he's not in these moods, but I just can't ever be certain.

I don't know what I'd do in your situation so like I say I'm being really unhelpful. But you are not alone in not feeling that things are 'bad' enough to justify that sort of action. You can only have a relationship with him if he's changed, but him being in a different country I suppose makes life harder to drop by and start building something. Perhaps you could take him up on the Skype calls, and if he start showing his old colours again shut them down immediately?

Whatever you do I'm thinking of you - it's hard

My dad, and mum were similar. At the time I thought it was just normal 80's stuff as well, but now see a lot of it - especially the constant criticism, beating of my brother due to his own lack of control, setting us up for failure and living in an atmosphere of SHAME and BLAME - was abusive, my counsellor even thought it had a worse effect on me (also had abusive relationships when I was older) than the childhood sexual abuse I went through from a family member of my mother's!

I get on grand with my mum now, though I do wonder how she reconciled herself to not doing much when he lashed out (I remember once lying over my brother's body to protect him during a beating and getting a kick in the ribs for my efforts) I think she maybe thought it was just the done thing at the time plus it was harder for wives to leave then.

He has mellowed a lot over the years but is still prone to irrational fits of temper over his "issues" - waste for instance, I used to get upset but I now turn it back on him "why do you feel the need to bully...why do you point out everyone else's faults are you afraid we'll notice yours, no-one is perfect...what you're doing is bullying" - mam has started doing the same - naming it - and it's been pretty effective.

He has a good relationship with my niece and nephews but he would never be alone with them, mam would always be there and usually others. The issue of temper-losing or slapping has never come up and I hope it would never, I'm sure if it did my brother's would take the kids out of the equation immediately. I'm glad the culture around violence to children has changed so it's not so acceptable anymore, even if things aren't perfect.

Not sure this is much help to you, but do whatever feels best for you and your kids as their protector, you're not doing anything to him - he did it to himself.

I'm sorry to hear what you've all been through. Really helpful posts actually, all of them, and am relieved - but also sad obviously - not to feel so alone in this.

"you're not doing anything to him - he did it himself" not sure he sees it this way... I know it's true but I find it hard to remember.

Scribble sounds like we have the same dad, minus the wheelchair...

I guess the Skype thing would give me some control as I could end the call. But I don't know if it would be for me or him. I do love him and miss him, in spite of all this.

I would consider answering the step mum's email with the 'why'.

That way, you're not telling him. You don't know her, so her opinion is irrelevant. She might be a good go-between?

It's a good point, Basket, but often in these cases the parent will involve other people to fight their battles for him.

You would, ultimately, be telling the dad, because she'd just pass the message along.

Then she'll be bombarded by his side of the story, and because she loves him, she'll believe it. So then she'll feel obligated to play the 'poor, poor Dad!' card, and will go back to Monkey to tell her how very wrong she is. Once again, Monkey will be in the wrong for her father's behaviour.

It's called triangulation or flying monkeys in relation to narcissistic personality disorder. Getting other people involved when you're not getting anywhere yourself.

It prolongs the conversation and thus prolongs the pain.

I am sorry to read what happened to you; it was not right at all and he was emotionally abusive to his wife and you his daughter. What you endured in childhood was abuse at his hands (your mother stayed for her own reasons but these did not help you any) and the after effects of that were also evident when you had an abusive relationship yourself.

Re your comment:-
"Recently my stepmum (who I've never actually met) emailed me, saying my dad is heartbroken that he's missing out on his only grandchild, that he doesn't know what he's done wrong. I haven't replied. I don't know if I should. I don't know what to do. Am I making a big deal out of nothing and being horrible keeping his only grandchild away from him? Or am I just being selfish and ungrateful? Is there any way I could have a different kind of relationship with him now? "

Note here that she has written and not him. I would not reply to this e-mail either; doing that just gives them an "in" to potentially bother you even more. She here is the flying monkey doing his bidding. She is certainly not acting in your best interests here.

If he could really be bothered with you he would have been on his knees years ago begging for your forgiveness. Your dad has not fundamentally changed; he still has not apologised nor has even accepted any responsibility for his actions. He still plays the eternal victim.

It is NOT your fault he is the ways he is; you did not do that to him. His own family of origin did that.

If he is too difficult/toxic for you to deal with its the same deal for your both vulnerable and defenceless child. I would continue to keep her well away from this individual and instead maintain and build relationships with other emotionally healthy family members instead.

Basket, I'm a bit hesitant because I don't know her, I don't know what their marriage is like and I don't know what he's told her. It's entirely possible he's described it as just him doing his best as a parent (a lot of people would see it that way, after all) and I've come off as horrendously ungrateful.

In the past I have tried to talk about this to people who have said things like, well, nobody's perfect, all parents make mistakes, it's all in the past. This is why it's hard to talk about this stuff. In theory it's reasonable that he's upset at not seeing me, and that she's trying to make peace, on paper it sounds fine, but I don't feel like it's fine. I have friends who do keep up relationships with their dads even though they've done really shitty things, so I keep thinking there must be something terribly wrong with me for not wanting to see him.

It's not like I stopped seeing him because he did something really spectacularly bad, I think I'd just had enough, and I started wondering why I put up with this shit. Because he's my dad - but that doesn't feel like such a good reason any more.

One of my friends said maybe I should give him the chance to apologise, as he doesn't even know what he's done wrong. But that's part of the problem, isn't it, the fact that he can't even see what he's done wrong? And I don't think he is going to apologise, frankly.

The only other person who lived through my childhood with me was DM, and it's pretty much impossible to discuss it with her because she just gets really defensive and says it was hard for her, so it's not possible to get any kind of reasoned advice out of her. I don't have close relatives on that side of the family, his parents are dead, there's a few people we exchange Christmas cards with and some cousins who we have on Facebook but don't actually see much of. So I can't really talk to anyone else who will validate my experiences of what he was like when I was a child.

I would really like to just have the good parts of the relationship, as we did have good times and do nice things together, but isn't that always the case with people who are abusive, that they're not all bad, and you wish you could have the good bits without the bad?

It's really hard to explain to people what made the bad bits bad, though. Because he did love me, and he did want the best for me, but I was always waiting for the next time he lost his temper and it was, supposedly, my fault when things turned sour. I don't want my DD to think anyone should have to live like that.

Gawd, this is another huge long essay, sorry.

Took so long to write that, I missed some new replies...

Thelonggame, I can't really talk it over with my mum (see above) and DH thinks it's up to me and is supportive of what I want; I think he feels a bit helpless and unable to give advice.

Hadn't heard the term 'flying monkey', is it from Wizard of Oz? Makes my username seem a bit ironic...

"If he could really be bothered with you he would have been on his knees years ago begging for your forgiveness. Your dad has not fundamentally changed; he still has not apologised nor has even accepted any responsibility for his actions. He still plays the eternal victim."

I think he genuinely doesn't understand what he's done wrong. Thinks he was just being a parent. I don't know if I can expect him to work it out somehow. I suspect that if I tried to explain it all to him, he would just go on the defensive.

I feel like it was all about him, not about being a parent to me; it was almost like my mum and I were both in an abusive marriage with him, if that makes any sense at all?

My dad used to be very mean when i was a child. I got quite a few smacks as a child and I remember his angry outbursts. However he changed and his such a laid back man now, his a great grandad. I would give him a chance, you will regret it if you don't.

Well ill probably get flamed but corporal punishment in the 70s 80s was widely accepted. I had more off my teachers than i ever got off my parents. So im not sure if I would consider that alone to be abuse.

However your description is of an abusive Man and the collection of incidents and attitudes add up to something worse than (as i read it anyway) any one instance. Its the pattern and if that pattern is consistent then I wouldn't want my children exposed to it.

I hope im making myself clear here, I'm not trying to justify corporal punishment in any way, just contextualise it in regard of the time frame and prevailing attitudes.

'it all sounds quite trivial compared to what some people endured in childhood.'

OP, I bet you that every single one of us on here have thought the same about our own experiences. That's the thing - abuse makes you feel, as you describe, 'worthless'. So you start thinking that your own experiences couldn't possibly be that bad and who are you to complain anyway? We have all learned to undervalue ourselves so much. What you describe sounds horrific to me, highly abusive and nasty and just dreadful. You have every right to feel the way you do.

I get so sick of people (often abusive parents themselves) trying to justify stuff like this by saying 'oh well, every parent does the best they can'. Well you know what? Sometimes their 'best' just isn't flipping good enough. Sometimes their 'best' is highly dangerous and destructive and I don't see why its the (adult) child's job to shrug their shoulders and get over it. Not that you 'get over' stuff like this anyway!

A small word of advice OP - that nasty little word 'should' is a right bugger. We have all been well trained to think about what we 'should' do - which means 'what other people want me to do and what will make other people happy'. If it helps, everytime you think 'what should I do?', try to turn it into 'what do I want to do?' What sits right with you, what gives you a feeling in your gut that it might be a good decision for you? Because that's the most important thing - what you want to do.

'I do love him and miss him, in spite of all this'

Do you miss him - the actual man that he is - or do you miss having a dad that you could have a good relationship with? A nice loving dad? I've felt devastated and a huge sense of loss at going low contact with my parents but I don't actually miss them as people. I miss the fantasy of having a nice mum and dad that I can get along well with and who support me and care about me, I don't miss the two people who happen to be my parents because they just make me miserable.

It may not be the case for you, just a thought x

You make a good point about 'should', lotta, thank you. I do find it hard to think it was bad; I read your post and thought oh no, I've made it sound far worse than it was... But you're right. I don't know what I want to do, only what I think I should do.

I don't think I miss a complete fantasy, there are things about him that I miss, but I see what you mean. I think it's somewhere in between really.

Thanks to everyone who has shared their own experiences.

It's really hard to explain to people what made the bad bits bad, though. Because he did love me, and he did want the best for me, but I was always waiting for the next time he lost his temper and it was, supposedly, my fault when things turned sour.

Most people come at this having had the experience that their parents loved them, unconditionally, and for who they are.

That was what made the bad bits bad for me. The fact that if I wanted any sort of love from my dad, I had to earn every moment of it, and it was hard earned, and it would be dropped any time I fell into mediocrity.

It's hard to understand it if you haven't experienced it.

he's described it as just him doing his best as a parent

Well, I'm pretty damned sure you also did your bestas a child, and you still got belted for it. As a child you're supposed to make mistakes. It's supposed to be OK and parents help you to understand it and help you to do better. Yes, children can push every last button of their parents, and yes, parents can sometimes lose their temper, and sometimes that can be really bad, but a child shouldn't live in constant fear. A child shouldn't be left wondering whether there would suddenly be no more love because they've finally disappointed their parents that much.

I cannot ever imagine making my children feel that I didn't love them. They know when I'm pissed off with them, but they're not scared of me. I'm pretty sure that they know I love them.

Its so sad Pincushion, the realisation that your parent's love was never unconditional. The fear of not being 'good enough' follows you into adulthood and is so hard to overcome. The walking on eggshells, and trying so hard not to mess up, adds a level of stress to a child's life that makes me furious to think of. Its just not bloody fair.

An email from his wife is a shabby way to to start a reconciliation. Why would an email from a complete stranger persuade you to change your mind? She has no idea who you are, only his twisted version of what has happened and your best interests won't matter to her at all.

If he wants to see you, then he should make an effort himself. He should take the time to understand why you have felt it necessary to go NC. I doubt very much that he has changed at all.

Nothing you're describing here feels 'right' at all.

An email from his wife is a shabby way to to start a reconciliation. Why would an email from a complete stranger persuade you to change your mind? She has no idea who you are, only his twisted version of what has happened and your best interests won't matter to her at all.

If he wants to see you, then he should make an effort himself. He should take the time to understand why you have felt it necessary to go NC. I doubt very much that he has changed at all.

Nothing you're describing here feels 'right' at all.