Is he lying about these bank charges?

[ConfusedAndSick]

Namechange.

My husband enjoys wearing womens underwear. I found out by accident near the start of our relationship. Over the years he has gone through stages of lying about it, spending money we can't afford on it, hiding it, throwing it all away when caught and then it all starts again.
He knows that I'm not keen on it. I accept it as I love him and he's not hurting anyone, but I draw the line at him walking around the house in heels, stockings, the lot, around me.

We're at a stage where we can talk about it and he has some "outfits" that I'm ok with him wearing around me but he knows I don't like him spending lots of money on it and that I will not have sex with him wearing it. I tried it once, for him, and it left me cold.

Now I've found charges to his bank account to a website called Chatropolis.
It doesn't take much looking around to see they have a "Men in Lingerie" section, as well as plenty of other things.
He knows that this would be way too far for me as I have a huge fear that one day he'll want more from his cross dressing and leave me or cheat on me with someone he can fulfill his fantasies with.

He said he knows nothing about it. Swore on his childs life.
Lying about it would be worse than the act itself to me.
I said to him if it was fraud then he would need to call his bank, on loudspeaker in front of me, and report it. Which he did. The bank agreed it was fraud but also said it would be going to their crime department and there would be repercussions if he had lied to them.

I still can't say I truly believe him on this.

Do banks normally say they'll refund you when you make an initial call like this? Or must they have seen something their end to prove it was likely to be fraud?

Does anyone have any experience of this site?
I can't see there's a way to log on with an email address only with a login which I can't see that you can reset otherwise I would have entered his email to see if an account was recognized.

I feel sick and lost and I can't talk to anyone IRL.

Goddessofsmallthings as I am currently doing the same I do take offence at people using my mother's illness to suggest getting out of fraud charges. I do feel insulted and offended when people are flippant about it. So I feel my comment is neither pedantic or unnecessary.

Of course he lied to OP about the charges.

Why? Because he is fearful that OP will ban him from any aspect of his fetish or, even worse, leave him because of his fetish. OP has set strict permissible limits of what he can and can't do, and maybe thats too controlling.

And now he's been caught trying to conceal his activities...

But, why can't he fully indulge his fetish, that the OP admits is harmless to her? Because OP has strict limits on what he can and can't do. He's permitted to dip his toes in the water, but can't get wet. Me? I can't see what harm he's doing to anyone, if he wants to dress up, why not let him dress up as he wants, rather than to proscribed limitations and no more. A dress is ok, but not the stockings? Why not, where is the logic in that?

And surely it's up to him if he wants to spend less that thirteen pound from his own bank account?

I think another concern is that he has been crossing so many of your boundaries for a long time. He keeps pushing and pushing at them and will continue to do so until he gets to a position that he ultimately (whether he knows it or not) wants.

You said you didn't like it and he kept doing it, then no underwear around you, then a few outfits that you will allow around you, now chat... Where does it end?

Take care OP.

As digger has said, despite the OP being crystal clear as to what she is prepared to accept with regard to her dh's predilection, he's continually pushing her boundaries which not only indicates that he's intent on going further than what has been previously agreed between them, but also that he has a lack of respect for her right not to be as enthusiastic about his 'hobby' as he is.

In addition, as the OP has made apparent, Over the years he has gone through stages of lying about it, spending money we can't afford on it, hiding it, throwing it all away when caught and then it all starts again and it would be unsurprising if this latest example of his duplicity has caused her understandable insecurity about the possibility that may he leave or cheat on her in order to fulfil his fantasies to rear its ugly head yet again.

This would seem to be yet another case of lies, more lies, and damn lies on the part of the OP's dh and it's particularly damnable that he swore on his child's life that he knew nothing about a transaction which he knew full well he'd made.

It's not about a paltry £13 the money; it's about the fact that, regardless of whether he's wearing budgie smugglers or a thong, he lacks integrity and his word is most definitely not his bond.

I hope your absence is indication that you are engaging in the type of full and frank discussion which will serve to allay your fear of what the future may hold, OP, but my fear is that you will only attain peace of mind after disengaging from your h.

NB: To those who may see this thread as an opportunity to promote crossdressing/transvestism as a harmless pastime: Please turn your attention to the needs of the OP who is feeling "sick and lost" and "can't talk to anyone IRL" and do her the courtesy of refraining from rehashing debate/argument which she has doubtless heard on occasions too numerous to mention.

It's a chat site, not a site selling underwear. The OP is understandably concerned that her husband is now involving others in his activities despite having agreed boundaries with his wife. This is nothing to do with her husband spending his own money in underwear.
So sorry that your suspicion was confirmed OP.

Or Goddess and Digger, this isn't really about OP's hubby failing to comply, maybe it's about why he's being made to comply?

In other words - OP has laid the law down. Well, what if it was the other way around, eg, ''My hubby doesn't like my hobby of flower arranging, he limits which flowers I can use, I can't have any around him...' MN would be, quite rightly, up in arms about a man laying restrictive laws down about a harmless activity, but when it's the other way around, it's different.

Eek He's always free to walk away. He's not free to pretend to agree to the guidelines and then lie to the OP. She's been clear about what she can cope with.

Plenty of relationships involve one partner expressing a dislike for a hobby. My DP hates the idea of me having a motorbike. He thinks I'll kill myself. He can compromise on a slower one or a safer one but it's not the same, I want a fast sporty one. I don't agree to get a slow one and secretly ride a fast one. It would even occur to me because I love him and so we talk these things through.

And this is a damn sight bigger than a motorbike... Most people probably wouldn't have stuck around, less face it. The OP has expressed her fears about the behaviour and they agreed guidelines, which her DH had continually breached, and then lied to both her and the bank about. Which isn't really allaying the OPs fears that he can't control this.

If my DP has a fetish I wouldn't put up with him paying to chat to other people about that fetish and then lying about it.

Can't believe some people think he's not done anything wrong.

If you can link to a case where a woman's harmless hobby of flower arranging has led to her donning an apron regardless of her hubby's distaste for such garments, repeatedly lying about her expenditure on blooms/containers etc, and causing him to fear she'll leave or cheat on him in order to fulfil her floristry fantasies, I'll concede that you may have a point, Eekaman

As it is, I have an aversion to certain flowers which would cause me to ban prohibit a partner from using them in my home and, as being exposed to the blooms used in flower arrangements cannot be said to be harmless to those who are allergic to them, I doubt that mumsnetters would be anything less than sympathetic to your imaginary hubby.

He's always free to walk away.

IMO that's exactly what he should do. He's clearly not able or willing to meet the OP's conditions so what, realistically, is the alternative?

Eek are you seriously comparing a lingerie fetish to flower arranging

Eek have you looked at the chat site he's a member of? This is not about the fetish. The OP has accepted the fetish despite her misgivings and discomfort with it. If your significant other was visiting a chat site with sections such as "show offs with webcams" and "just wanna fuck" you wouldn't be concerned? What about if they lied about it?

I doubt there's any such chat sites for those who have a floristry fetish, and I'd put a considerable sum on there being none with a live action banner headline featuring a couple engaging in anal catholic sex.

When logging off t'internet I had to close down numerous Chatropolis pages that I most certainly didn't browse when taking a quick look to see what the OP's dh had been spending money on.

Eeekaman

But, why can't he fully indulge his fetish, that the OP admits is harmless to her? Because OP has strict limits on what he can and can't do. He's permitted to dip his toes in the water, but can't get wet. Me? I can't see what harm he's doing to anyone, if he wants to dress up, why not let him dress up as he wants, rather than to proscribed limitations and no more. A dress is ok, but not the stockings? Why not, where is the logic in that?

From a purely objective viewpoint, yes, your opinion makes sense.

However, cross-dressing is never going to be objective to the partner or spouse. It is always going to be charged with emotion and insecurity and a fear of "everyone finding out".

Also - take it from one who knows! - seeing your partner, who you are attracted to presumably on the basis of their essential maleness/femaleness, dressed as the opposite sex, can be a real boner-killer. Especially if you've got a big hairy guy in delicate feminine lingerie.

A fetish for the aroma of flowers is recognised, Antholagnia, apparently.

Obviously I chose flower arranging purely as an example of how trivial and harmless a bit of cross dressing should be - note 'should'. Yes, I do realise it would be challenging for ones partner, and I'm sure it's not an all day, every day thing for him, but life is full of challenges. It's how we react to them that defines us, surely?

Honestly, I truly believe the cross dressing is no big deal from OP's dh. I do feel that he's hiding his activities through fear of what reprisals might occur if his dw / OP found out - why is OP checking his bank account, why is he so fearful? The solution, as with most things, is dialogue.

I feel very sorry for this guy. I suspect he feels like he's caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. He's either facing the loss of his family or denying what seems to be a pretty fundamental part of his sexuality and I don't think that's a long term sustainable situation.

Personally, I think this marriage probably needs professional help more than advice on MN - counselling of some kind. I also don't think giving him another bollocking and expecting him to repress his sexuality even further is going to solve anything except possibly kick the problem down the road for another couple of years.

OP, what do you plan to do next?

Women are 'allowed' to wear 'men's' clothes so why arent men allowed to wear women's?

It has always baffled me why society makes men wear mens clothes but when men want to wear what is available to women they are made to hide it away.

Who decided that knickers were only for women anyway?

Perhaps of we all relaxed a bit, and let people wear what bits of material they wanted in their own spare time, the world would be a less judgemental place.

It's not a fetish or a hobby it's part of his sexual identity. It is almost like saying somebody should stop being gay. Everybody has a right to a sexual identity although this can be difficult for any spouses involved. I feel for you deeply OP you are in a very difficult situation and I know it is upsetting. I have two friends in your situation and both have now separated. I do think you both may need specialist counselling to explore these issues as I don't think you can change somebody's sexual identity.

The cross dressing is not the issue! The issue is the OP's husband looking for sexual satisfaction outside of the marriage from actual people and paying for a subscription to a site that facilitates that.

Being a cross dresser does not give a free pass to exchange sexually inappropriate chat/webcams or arrange sex with randoms.

This man already has an outlet for his preference within the marriage, as a couple they explored what they were comfortable with and agreed on those boundaries. If that is no longer enough for him then he has a responsibility to communicate with his wife about his needs and not go looking elsewhere for satisfaction. The OP has already proven that she is willing to discuss and try things within her own comfort zone, she hasn't shut him down or forbidden him from expressing that side of himself. He is fearful because he has betrayed his wife and he knows he has done wrong!

I do think you need professional help as a couple, OP. Or, as PPthis will just rear its ugly head again.

It's because women are 'othered' by society. So they can wear men's clothes because men are the default humans and it's assumed all humans want to emulate men.

Just like a Caucasian person wearing ethnic dress seems 'off' where an Asian person (for eg) wearing westernised clothing is considered normal. White men are the default and dressing as a minority is culturally unacceptable.

Thank you to those who have shown me support.

I would like to clarify a few things.
I don't care about the £13, honestly could not care less.
He is free to where what he wants.
He asked what I feel comfortable with him wearing around me of an evening, I told him and he respected that. If he wants to wear more then I will go out with friends. I'm sorry that I find it difficult to accept my husband in outfits that frankly I think looks rubbish on woman anyway. If that makes me a shit person who deserves to be lied to time and time again then there we go.
He has more issues with the cross dressing than I do. I am always happy to talk about it and have told him I would support him as long as he was honest about things.
I've helped him physically change himself so he looks more feminine which makes him happier.
Basically I think I do all I bloody can to make him happy. He does not have to lie or hide anything through fear. I have even bloody bought him items before because I do accept who he is and I married him because I love him regardless.
He pointed out the charges to me because we had gone to get printed statements for a mortgage application and he showed me immediately claiming fraud.
As many people have picked up on the issue is him paying to talk to people in a sexual manner. I would not approve of this if he was going on this site to talk to people even if cross dressing was not involved.
The sad thing is, if he had just come clean there and then I would have been pissed off but I would have forgiven him.
But the lying, swearing on our child's life, being faced with increasing evidence and still denying it is what upset me and angered me so much.

He called the bank that night and said he made a mistake and they said it was fine so hopefully that's that.

He is seeing a councillor on his own and we are seeing one together as well.
I'm still very hurt by his actions but I feel we should at least try to save our family.
Our relationship is great in every other way and I really hope with help we can both get to a point where we are happy with everything.
He is very aware though that any lies in the future would be the end .

It sounds like you've been amazing.

I had an actual fraud for £320 and bank did mention if it's not fraud I will have to deal with consequences.

I didn't do any purchase from "little woods" and signed all the paperwork required.

The bank refunded my money and there wasn't anything afterwords...