"But we took you to Stately Homes!" Survivors of Dystfunctional Families

[Meerka]

It's May 2015, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014
July 2014
March 2015

Dec 14- March 15

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Haven't been in the Stately HOmes much for a few days, catching up a bit now

violet welcome. No, you're not being silly at all. Your hurt shines through and that depth of hurt, puzzlement and bafflement as to why they are like that, all that comes from somewhere. You don't imagine that kind of thing. it builds up slowly, small incident by small incident until you realise there's a bloody mountain of hurt perched on top of your heart crushing it. Its even worse when there's a nice/nasty dynamic ... and when you are the scapegoat and your sister is the Golden Child.

How to deal with it? I think you are absolutely reasonable in backing away hard. Your mother and sister are both wrapped up in making you the Bad Guy, the scapegoat. Your father isn't going to stand up for you.

keep in touch to the degree you want to. It's kind of hard to leave an 82 year old but you can certainly keep contact at once a month, once every two months.

Most of all, if they start making vicious or snide comments, say "okay I'm going now, see you next time". They won't like it - but that doesn't matter does it? If the target of nasty comments walks away, well, what a shame eh?

Secondly write down what you want to say in a letter. You dont have to post it, but you can say everything you need to and want to. It's a very useful exercise for many people.

it -might- be worth asking your father why he's never stood up for you. You -might- get an answer from him which might be quite revealing. Go with your gut instinct there as to whether it's a good idea or bad.

folkgirl welcome, I havent read up to today yet but never worry about being able to give something back

1. if you can't now, maybe you will be able to in the future

2. sometimes it helps you just to be able to write stuff down and have it read by others.

3. kind of following on from that, sometimes posting your own experiences helps because someone else can say "yes it was like that for me too!" and having it said aloud really helps. As maybe violet found. You are less alone with it all, which helps both you and others all on its own.

autumn you havent put much detail (which is absolutely fine! but it means talking in generalities), but no matter what others say, I think you need to do what's right for you and your family. Keeping in mind that a highly stressed and unhappy mummy is not able to do as much for her family as a free, unencumbered mummy ... Children pick up on atmospheres very easily.

Are there any significant exams coming up?

what do -you- want to do? Think carefully about that one.

Can you afford moving? (keep in mind that within reason, a smaller happy house is better than a bigger unhappy one)

wonar agreed - tell her nothing from now on.

it means you have to stop thinking of her as a source of support. Has she been one in the past? Is this dismissal of your situation part of a pattern, or is it a one-off? I suspect it's part of a pattern or you'd not have posted here, but that's only a suspicion.

Can you get support from elsewhere?

Keeping an incident diary is very wise.

gollums, can you try the negative/positive reinforcement thing with your parents and for that matter, PILs?

If your husband has that chat with them, that sets the clear gorund rules. Maybe lay it on thick - state to them that access to their grandchild depends on them not making comments.

now she won't like it. She will also genuinely find it hard to stop making comments becuase she's done it so very long.

So reinforce it by cutting the visit short when she starts making comments. "We asked you not to make comments on weight. You just did. We are going and we will see you another time".

If she gets defensive, starts saying you're oversensitive, then one answer would be "we are the judges of that, not you".

Actually, you know, there's absolutely no reason not to start acting like this now. It will set the pattern for the future - and post birth it will be much harder simply becuase of the (lovely!) stress of the baby being around. I do think it's a good idea to have that talk this weekend if you can, and then to put the phone down on her if she makes nasty comments. Over and over and over until she gets the message. And keep on doing it. You are the judge, not her. And if occaisonally you get it wrong, it's not the end of the world. You have had decades of her sniping at you or criticising you. You won't change the pattern within yourself all at once.

Remember, you are protecting your little one. Also yourself -and it's a good thing to protect yoruself from unnecessary hurt.

Having said all that, I do think as well that atilla makes some excellent points about going NC. being untrustworthy to be around your baby, plus usually so drunk, is not good.

hedgehogs Im sorry for your pain. You deserved to be the centre of your mother's world. You havent said much else, but I hope you can find some help on the Stately Homes.

fifthdayofchristmas I am not a MH professional but I suspect you are doing things absolutely correctly by keeping everything professional and non-personal.

If you're dealing with someone as manipulative as this then telling them anything other than "i'm fine" is giving them oil for the flames.

Seriously, keep it practical and to the point.

Do you have some sort of legal recourse in the end? He could obfusticate forever otherwise ...

About his DNs, your children. I personally would tend to not say anything directly unless somethign extreme happens but to quietly try to keep him away from them. Do they see much of him? If so, it might be an idea when he starts being manipulative / unpleasant to start asking questions "what actually happened there?" "why do you think he said that"? "what did he say to your brother?" "how do you feel about [X action]". trying to get them to look at motives and at the effects that your brother has on the people aorund him. That will also give them the tools to see the same in other unpleasant people in the future.

Meerka Im so sorry. I somehow thought you and "AttilatheMeerkat" were the same person. So my thanks was/is to you both then really. You have given me a helpful listening ear in the past on this thread and I just wanted to say, thanks really.

it's a bit close isn't it? Unfortunately Meerka is an old gaming name (I'm a geek) and I've used it for some years. Finally gravitated to the Stately Homes thread and then realised that there was a Meerkat General here. don't really want to change it though.

But you are very welcome ... it's shit having gone through the kind of stuff that brings you here, but at least there are fellow survivors and that's comforting .. at least it is for me.

Hi again Milllii, thanks for your reply. Don't think I was very clear in my Op, sorry. DB was not left out of DFs will. {In fact when my DC1 was born, he moaned when DF set up the trust for the grandchildren as it wasn't for him. I even told DF about this, and DF, not wanting to upset DB gifted him a substantial sum to keep him happy.) The will was a straight 50/50 split. The trust was never intended to be for either myself or my DB, but rather for DGC. Before DFs death, DB and I got on OK I suppose, although he did not like it when I got married and had children. Family life meant my attention was going elsewhere, and now I think about it , this is when things got more difficult, as I began to realise (through DHs lovely family) that my experience was not the norm and DH occasionally (and always very gently, bless him!) raised the occasional eyebrow whien I was expected to drop things to deal with DBs "issues". Sorry if this is a bit rambling - the pieces of the jigsaw are just starting to fit together and make sense for me today, so it's a bit overwhelming. I'm hoping that getting a better understanding of NPD will help me in dealing with DB, so all comments/advice welcome. Meerka, thanks for that - very reassuring and what you suggest is kind of what I do with the DC. Helps that they are both pretty sensible too

fifth thanks for explaining some more. He has been treated fairly and equally then so I wonder why he behaves this way. Its only relevant I guess if you want to sort it out. If you did you could ask him outright about his behaviour and he would either explain to you how and why he feels and behaves the way he does or he would deny that he does it. Would you want to do that though or do you just want to back off and go/keep low contact. Its funny how when you start realising little things about your past then a whole lot more feelings start to materialise.

Meerka thanks for the explanation of your name . Yes Stately Homes is an eye opener and so helpful to read about what others experience and how it resonates with your own experience, so that you understand that it is not "you" who is seeing things wrong (if that makes sense)

raised the occasional eyebrow whien I was expected to drop things to deal with DBs "issues".

No wonder he's asking you if you're alright and saying you've changed. You went and got a life of your own and he isn't your main concern in life any more.

milllii it makes a lot of sense. All these years and all the therapy and I'm still trying to untangle whether it's me that seeing things wrong or what. Fortunately there are a few concrete incidents with my father where I've mentioned them to others. Their reaction has made it clear that the incidents are not normal and not ok. I cling onto the memory of those reactions, because it proves that it's not just me.

I cling onto the memory of those reactions, because it proves that it's not just me

Absolutely Meerka just the same for me! Why did it take me so long to find this delightful stately home.? Probably stuck on the long gravel drive

Meerka yes, that is it. When others have a reaction to something you say about those that have hurt you . It's that reaction that makes you aware that it isn't normal or right to be treated that way.

Can I join in please? I am partially expecting to be told IBU as I have posted about this on another thread in the past and got a bit of a pasting but I still can't get past it.

Ok, backstory, Mother was an alcoholic. Always suffered with her 'nerves' so our upbringing was often scary, frightening and generally insecure. She would emotionally abuse my brother and I, pick fights then smother us in drunken kisses the next, we never knew what mood she would be in when we got in from school so I feel like I grew up with a constant knot of anxiety in my tummy. We were beaten, often and occasionally quite badly. My parents would have very open fights, usually about money, anything really - they would either be disgustingly all over each other (loud sex) or fighting and arguing.

My father in all essence was and is a weak man. He would never stand up to my mother, preferring to take her side even when she was completely and utterly out of order (like hitting us children hard), even to the point when she drunkenly threw me out at 17 for 'looking at her the wrong way' he stood back and allowed her to do it.

Despite this my brother and I have always idolised our father - he was generally very good to us but could never and would never protect us from our mother.

Fast forward 25 years, Things settled down for me once I left home, I have always worked and worked hard to stand on my own two feet - I've married happily and have two lovely children. I kept my mother at a distance over the years as her behaviour didn't really improve but I got quite close to my father as her alcoholism got worse and worse and he needed our support. I went NC with my mother for the last two years of her life as she was clearly killing herself with drink and wouldnt listen to anyone - she became really hostile so for my own sanity I left her to it - my father enabled her behaviour totally for an easy life and she died last year.

My brother and I absolutely rallied around my father - we all felt a measure of peace had finally descended after years of dealing with the fall out from my mothers problems but this is where things haven't ended. My father started seeing a woman two weeks after my mother passed away. My brother and I were quietly shocked but wished them well as my father explained it was only a drink / meal out now and again. Well, the situation gained pace extremely quickly and within another few weeks this woman was practically living with my father. My father seemed to go completely head over heels for her. He stopped answering our phonecalls, texts, was never available to talk etc, stopped his previous hobbies etc

My brother and I decided to have a talk with him - we didnt know this woman and what her intentions were - we told my father our worries about her moving in and for him to be careful and basically he went ballistic. He immediately became very, very defensive about his relationship and about this woman - she has been bipping away in the background about us - my father told us that she wants him to stop talking to us so thats where I lost my rag. We have been there relentlessly and unconditionally for my father over all the years and now, in a nutshell he has told us kids to go to hell. It seems my father is not happy unless he's got a controlling woman with him. I'm beyond upset as Ive not spoken to him for 4 weeks and hes not contacted my children or anything. I feel I should stand my ground as I dont feel that Ive done anything wrong in having a quiet chat with my father about this - I though we were close and could talk to each other about anything. Now I know this woman is interfering between my father and us kids I dont like her but my father has told me that If I want a relationship with him I HAVE to accept her too.

He's known her 6 months and hes prepared to cast aside his daughter (and son if needs be - hes told my brother the same) in favour of her. I cant believe it and dont know where to go from here.

Floridabound42,

Welcome to the Stately Home thread, you will certainly not get a pasting here.

I would not contact him at all and totally distance myself from him. He has made his choice here and it is this woman whom he is now with.

re your comment:-
"It seems my father is not happy unless he's got a controlling woman with him"
That is him in one really.

Weak willed men like your father need someone to idolise; he was and is a bystander, enabler and your late mother's hatchet man. He put his own self first and failed to protect your brother and you from her alcoholism. He was not a good parent to you and remains a poor example of a grandparent to your children. He is still putting his own interests first and foremost.

Phew, thanks. I can see it, my brother can see it but coming to terms with it is much, much harder than I ever imagined. I look at my two children and the thought of treating them like that breaks me up. I just couldn't do it.

My mind is a mixture of horrible times, yet we also had some good times with my parents. I have tried to think of them over the years and have some compassion for the situation my father was in. I have always thought the world of him despite knowing he never tried to protect us.

And now he just casts us aside like trash. Devastated all over again, feeling that childhood abandonment and emptiness all over again.

Hi, is anyone up? I'm an hour ahead and don't know who to call. My dm just assaulted me, pulled my hair. I've photographed the marks but only dv recourse here is the fuzz and we are not in a big city. Dc watching childrens tv and will pack them up and out all weekend in a minute. But yes, reading the stories on here - how CAN they ?!

Autumn I'm up, this is a regular poster with a name change as I outed myself on another thread. Better reply to follow

Call the police and get this reported, it does not matter that you are not in a big city.

Do not let your mother get away with what she has done here.

Where is your mother now?.

I'm so sorry to hear about what has just happened. Would you want to involve the police? Not quite understanding from your post sorry.

Offering a handhold, keep posting if you would like

Thank you all. Helps! Don't want to involve. But might park the kids and go and have a chat with them later. She cannot get anyway with this I agree. She is downstairs in a rage. In the week we are mostly out of house but the whole weekend stretches ahead...

I would have the police remove her from your home, she can no longer stay in your house in any event. What if she attacks you again?. She is a risk.

Get the police involved, abuse like this thrives on secrecy and this needs to be brought out into the open. If someone had done this to you in the street that person would be arrested; the fact that it is your mother makes no real difference. She has still assaulted you.