feeling responsible for his behaviour, am I to blame?

[LittleMissIntrovert]

I have finally worked out what it is that bothers me about my husband. It's lots of little things, but they all come under the same umbrella. It's like a lightbulb moment.

I haven't been happy for a long time, but I couldn't put my finger on why, so I had some individual counseling, and now we are having couples counseling. I feel so low at the moment, as I am struggling to say what I think, as I worry the blame is going to be put on me.

So what it comes down to is he doesn't have compassion and respect for me, or others. He is very selfish, and if it doesn't benefit him, he doesn't do it. He sees things as very black and white, and struggles to see others point of view.

He turns on the charm when with other people, and is the life and soul of the party, it's like he is 2 different people.

I struggle to talk to him about how I feel, as I just don't feel he understands, or can see my point of view.

I admit I struggle with expressing myself, and need someone who will listen, and not necessarily agree or give advice, but who can have a good discussion.

He has admitted in counselling that he shuts down and won't listen, but he is also turning on the charm, and saying all the 'right things' at the sessions.

I am reading a really good book on deal breakers in relationships, and it says how we all have something that is important to us. And for me I've realized it's compassion and being kind, and he seriously lacks in this area.

It comes from his upbringing. His family are all the same, so while I can understand where the behaviour has come from, it's still his choice to behave like that to a degree.

I could write a list of things that bother me, but it boils down to not feeling respected and having my needs considered.

I know I am not perfect, and nobody is, but this really bothers me.

I feel bad because maybe I should have pulled him up on it sooner? I should have challenged the behaviour, but I suppose I just couldn't see it.

I'm struggling to get my head around the fact that he has chosen to behave this way, and I have let him.

Even if he agrees in counselling to consider his behaviour, I know I will have to spell out exactly what I want him to do, but I would like him to think for himself? We discussed something else at counselling, and while he acknowledged it, he said I would need to remind him! I know we have to work together, but he needs to take ownership (I did tell him that).

Even if he does change, it's going to take a long time, and is it fair of me to expect that?

We have been married for nearly 15 years with 2 young children.

I feel so stupid for not seeing it sooner, and that its my fault for letting him treat me like this, am I being unrealistic in my expectations, please be honest.

A lot of advice I have been reading online is saying how it's not the mans fault, and how he doesn't know any better? And how we need to give them a chance.

I just want someone who knows how to treat me with the respect and compassion I need, I have male friends who do this (just friendship, nothing more, they are friends husbands) so I know it's possible.

A lot of advice I have been reading online is saying how it's not the mans fault, and how he doesn't know any better? And how we need to give them a chance.

It's not a man's fault if he chooses to be selfish and unkind??

I know bits ridiculous

It says they don't know any different, and how we should be kind to them and understanding, and explain their behaviour in a nice way, like we should to a child

But it does make me doubt myself

I've got to be honest OP, it doesn't sound hopeful. Basically you want him to develop empathy and compassion, but if those two things are missing out of his basic makeup, he's not going to be able to genuinely develop them. He can fake them, as you already know, but as soon as the mask slips you'll be back to square one.

he is also turning on the charm, and saying all the 'right things' at the sessions.

Yeah, counselling with a narcissistic person generally turns out that way. Have a google for some info on narcissistic personality disorder and see if it sounds familiar.

I would personally be looking at leaving as soon as possible, because the longer you expose your DC to his behaviour, the more likely they are to grow up like him

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It says they don't know any different, and how we should be kind to them and understanding, and explain their behaviour in a nice way, like we should to a child

Where did you read this?! The national website for arseholes anonymous? Fuck me, you're his wife, not his parent!

Wait, was this on a website relating to aspergers? If he's able to turn on the charm, he's not on the spectrum.

Don't blame yourself. His behaviour is his own choice, if you had "pulled him up on it sooner" it would not have changed who he is. All this is, is that now is the time when you have realised that who he is does not suit you. And that's ok.

Mutual caring and respect are what relationships are built on. You are not unreasonable to need that, you are not odd: there is no relationship without respect. Respect means that the other person accepts you and values you as a separate human being in your own right. It has to go both ways.

In your marriage, that is not the case. You cannot change your husband. You have the right to end a marriage that does not suit you or meet your needs.

All the best.

The only adult person whose behaviour you're resposible for is your own.

Does he value compassion and respect, and the relastionship with you, at all? even though he lacks respect himself? If he does then there's a chance he'll want to develop it. If he doesn't, then he won't and you'll have to decide if you want to stay with him and the model of behaviour he provides for your children, or go your separate ways. You sound too strong minded to be happy with the person he is though.

The fact he says the right things in counselling is a bad sign, I'm afraid.

It says they don't know any different, and how we should be kind to them and understanding, and explain their behaviour in a nice way, like we should to a child

Seems a very low standard to set for men.

yeah, both patronising and generally pretty futile.

That shutting down is called stonewalling. It's his choice to do that. It's also emotionally abusive, as is evident by the effect it's having on you.

The couples counselling is going to go nowhere. I've not read it all myself, but "why does he do that?" is often recommended and would be better for you to read.

Everyone is responsible for their own behaviour. No excuses.

And I can see why you've come to the conclusion you have. Already seen a couple of online articles that imply that stonewalling is hard-wired into men and it's the woman's fault for nagging.

I think the key when looking for advice online is to click away from anything that alludes to any sort of venus/mars differences between men and women, because they will ultimately start to make excuses for the perpetrator.

'Not his fault and doesn't know any better..' Is he an amoeba, or a sentient being?

I loathe this twisted evolutionary psychology shit. It's crap science and crap psychology. There are genuinely a minority of people who can't help their behaviour, but it's a tiny minority (generally people with quite severe mental problems, think of how hard it is to get off in court on diminished responsibility.)

Your average man or woman is perfectly capable of understanding that their behaviour is shit and needs to change. This idea that women are all nagging harridans emasculating their noble menfolk is rubbish.

It's also a handy way for an abuser to turn it right back on their target. Personally, I'd go to no more counselling with him. He's abusive, and you're in an environment where you're expressing emotion and vulnerability. He will turn round what happened in the sessions to hurt you - just watch.

Sorry I'm so cynical but I know several people like this - can charm the birds off the trees but zero compassion, empathy or remorse. They leave a trail of wreckage in their wake - destroyed spouses, damaged kids, burnt out co workers.

Personally, I'd be going to counselling by myself and making plans to get out. He won't change. Ever. You'll take the blame for actions while he carries on consequence free. You deserve better than that.

I don't know what you've been reading Op but I would refrain from reading such rubbish. Being selfish and unkind is a human problem , not a male problem. Taking the stance that he can't help it is simply a way to not hold him accountable.

just to put a semi-opposing pov, in fairness my husband did stonewall and it caused enormous marriage problems in the early days. But he realised what he was doing in the end and chose to change.

I've also seen at close quarters someone who stonewalled and it helped drive their wife to a banshee (mind you she had her own problems to start with, but she became way worse).

It's not impossible but very few people do change. If they do, it's because they want to, to save something they value.

oh dear, I could write your post. My DP is the same and I am also having counselling about the issues. It is narcissistic tendancies you are dealing with by the sounds of it.

I don't really have any advice, we are still in the midst of it but I can sympathise to an extent. it is very obvious my dp is like this from learnt behaviour from his parents, he has improved a lot since I started acknowledging things instead of letting him get away with them as such or being afraid.

I have no advice but if you can continue individual counselling at least you will get some support there. As far as I know it is not recommended that you have couples counselling with a narc as as you have already said, they are extremely good at playing the part and you will probably suffer more putting yourself in that situation.

A lot of advice I have been reading online is saying how it's not the mans fault, and how he doesn't know any better? And how we need to give them a chance.
This is so wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to start.

Based on what you have said, you are dealing with a textbook narcissistic, manipulative personality type. Unfortunately counselling can't help these people. They are how they are.

I can't say better than this:
"I would personally be looking at leaving as soon as possible, because the longer you expose your DC to his behaviour, the more likely they are to grow up like him"

re-itterating what squishee said,my counsellor told me this will likely happen you will have to really fight against it or hope something changes.

Thank you for all your replies

Because he can be nice when he puts on the act, people think he's really friendly and nice he just can't keep the act up at home!

My family and some friends stick up for him, and say I should stick out the counselling, I should give him a chance etc, they just don't see what he is really like.

OP, I was married to a man like this for 14 years. The man treated me, quite systematically, with contempt and hatred. He would swear at me, fail to lift a finger at home and do nothing for the kids, yet complain he was so, so, hard done by.......

When confronted he implored me to simply 'pull him up on it' each time.

He put on a wonderful front to the rest of the world, only behind closed doors he was devoid of basic levels of kindness, consideration, respect, that you would expect from a perfect stranger, let alone a spouse who is supposed to CHERISH you.

He stitched me up to the extent that I became responsible for CONTAINING HIS EMOTIONS. Such a deep and fundamental abuse of a person and a relationship. This is what is happening to you, too, OP.

You cannot change men like this - they are very damaged. The very best thing you can do for your children is get the hell out of the marriage. Your kids are fast learning in minute detail, that men must be appeased. They will replicate this relationship. Please don't let them do that. You have the choice (you do - trust me - there are ways to get out) they do not.

Read 'Why Does He Do That' by Lundy Bancroft and get out.

To be honest if your husband doesn't treat you with kindness and respect you're in the wrong marriage.

I think those are fundamental non-negotiables.

While I do agree it's his choice to be like this, there's no reason to think he will change just because you want him to. It's not that he can suddenly choose to be unselfish, for example, he's been like this all his life. Developing compassion takes a long time, requires long term commitment, and crucially the individual has to want to change.

He will likely consider what's in it for him. He probably thinks he's fine as he is. And if he can't see immediate benefits to him, then he's not likely to bother.

OP how is your DH with your children?
Did he grow up in a very male dominated environment?

He is very impatient with the children, and not very understanding.

One of our sons has SN, I said for ages I thought there was something, he said he was just lazy instead of backing me up and supporting us.

He does take them out/do things with them when I'm working at the weekend (I only work one day a week, which is one major thing that worries me about leaving, financially) but has had enough by the time I get home.

On holiday it's no fun as he always seems bored and gets impatient with the kids. He claims he enjoys himself, but that's not how he comes across.

He grew up in a mostly female environment (sisters) but his sisters and mother have very strong characters, and are all very similar. His dad is nice though, and is the only one I get on well with. Shame he didn't get more of those traits!

Look at it this way. Even if you are totally 100% to blame (which of course you are not) it's not working anyway. Stop looking for where the blame lies with him as he is a total knobber and make a start on what is needed to finish this relationship. You deserve happiness. You have zero chance of it with him. Step on that path.