Possibly racist DM and I have a mixed race DH - please help!

[CrazyCatLady13]

I've posted before about my DM. We have a difficult relationship due to her choosing her dogs over me (when I've been in hospital she wouldn't visit unless she could find a dogsitter as one of many examples), her narcissistic traits, her lack of any support. She's one of those people who always has it worse than anyone else, and kind of sucks the energy out of you. I'm currently LC, quick phone call every week and seeing them every few months.

Yesterday we were talking on the phone. She called someone 'pakki' and I said she couldn't do that, that it was a racist term. She replied 'but that's what they are, you're only saying that because you're married to DH' (DH is half Pakistani, half South American, born in the UK, and we've been together for over 5 years). This conversation came when she said she'd voted for UKIP and I'd told her that they were against ethnic minorities, she said she didn't care.

My DDad had a habit of telling racist jokes, I asked him to stop and he did. I don't think he's really racist, just inappropriate and he's wiling to listen and change. He'll accept anyone regardless of colour / religion, I don't know why he tells jokes like that though. At least he's stopped it around me and DH.

But now this from DM - what the hell do I do? If she was a friend, and was racist, I wouldn't maintain the friendship and would tell my friend why.

DH heard my side of the conversation and was shocked, obviously. He and my parents have always had a civil relationship, on the edge of friendly iyswim with no big bust ups. He's supported me in seeing how my DM treats me and standing up to her, and I love him so much.

DH is now saying he wants no contact with DM and I can understand that, and can support it. BUT do I confront DM? Do I let it lie? Do I keep contact with her & DDad? I'm completely lost over this issue.

No brained for me, tell her why and cut her off.

That's really tough.

My MIL insists on making statements like "the doctor, who was Indian, but, VERY nice" can't accept that's a racist statement.

After many, many, useless conversations where she gets as far as "but, he IS as black as the ace of spades, it's really not racist to say so, it's being observant" I have decided to chalk it up to "she's a fucking dick" and ignore.

But, she's my MIL and not my mother, so, it's easier. And, my kids are as pale and ginger as she is - so, she really can't "get" that she's being outrageous.

Distance yourself. Save your energy for other stuff, you'll not be able to persuade her that she's racist.

When your're in the mood, see them. Go armed with a jesting tone and "oh, are you chanelling your inner Bernard Manning again?"

Oh, and, your DH sounds divine.

Thank you both for taking the time to reply.

My DH IS divine, he's the best thing that's ever happened to me!

He's my second DH, the first left without any warning, I had a breakdown, lost my house, had to move back in with my parents, and Dmum wouldn't even move the family towels out of the cupboard in my room so I could put some clothes there. Sorry, as you can tell there's a bit of history!

I guess I'm scared to ask her any more details about how she feels, in case she forces my hand iyswim. At the moment, there's a little doubt, that maybe she said it to provoke a response or to get attention (possible).

Weigh up what you'll gain from confrontation-

is she likely to say "ohmaigawsh, I'm a fucking dick, I'm so sorry!" and change her ways?

will you feel relieved if you just cut contact, secure in the knowledge that she's beyond help?

Or, will you always have a nagging doubt that she'll need you,that she didn't really mean it, that she's not, at the core, a fucking dick, and, she is your mum.

Just minimise contact. Keep it for when you're in the mood. This is what call screening was invented for.

I don't think it's a tough one at all.

Your DH is a grown man who can think, and clearly has thought for himself. He's dealt with it.

Separately from the fact you're married to a mixed-race man, you say you wouldn't tolerate this in a friend, imitation being that you would in your mother. Why is that? Serious question, the answer to which may surprise you in light of your history (I'm guessing it might be "I don't know

Now ask yourself what impact there might be on your relationship with DH if you chose a different, un-nuanced and unreasoned stance from him. Is it worth risking your DH's respect? Your marriage?

Finally, do you have DC? Are you planning to have any with DH? Think ahead.

Really, it's not a tough call at all. "Paki" is out and out racist, voting UKIP as someone who can use the term Paki is further evidence. Your mum is not "possibly racist", she IS racist, as her words and actions have shown.

Bitter pill to swallow when it comes to a parent, but in your case it sounds like this may be a blessing in disguise.

"But now this from DM - what the hell do I do? If she was a friend, and was racist, I wouldn't maintain the friendship and would tell my friend why".

Your mother is really no different. You do not have to maintain this current low level of contact either.

As she is narcissistic in terms of personality it is no point in talking to her anyway as the only viewpoint that matters is her own. You are a bit part player in her life, everything and everyone centres around her in her own warped mind. She feels she has done nothing wrong here.

It is NOT your fault she is like this, you did not make her this way.

Maintain and reaffirm your own boundaries with her; however, she will likely rail against any boundary you care to set her.

Apart from anything else it is NOT possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist and this current level of contact may well go to zero.

You may also want to post on the "stately homes" thread on these pages as some of the respondents on there also have a narcissist mother.

What exactly do you actually get from your contact with yoru mother?

She's racist. You know she is, in your heart of hearts. You know you're kidding yourself looking for faint hope that she isn't. You know your DH has good reason to be damn annoyed.

I suspect you are desperately hoping for her to be a loving mother and want the best for you and be willing to make adjustments -any adjustments, even down to as small as the towels in the cupboard- ... and you also know that she won't.

I'm sorry, it's very hard when a mother isn't nice but makes our lives harder, not better. You keep on battering your head on the locked door of their motherhood, hoping one day that they will respond with genuine love and care ... but some mothers choose not to, over and over and over until it's so deeply ingrained that the door becomes solid stone.

A hard question: If it comes down to it, whom will you choose? your half-Pakistani, half-SA husband or her?

I would think that on some level you are still looking for approval from this woman; approval she will never give you. You are also likely to be well in a fear, obligation and guilt state with regards to her as well.

Reading "Will I ever be good enough" by Karyl McBride may also help you.

Thank you everyone. It's so difficult, I don't want to let DH down, I don't want to complicate things further than they are, I don't want to think about it, I'm so lost about this.

Brock - you're right, I don't know why I'd tolerate this in my DM but not in a friend. If I had to guess, I'd guess guilt - she's my mum, aren't we supposed to be more forgiving with family? I know the answer to that one.

Attilla - I've lurked in Stately Homes and found it very helpful. Compared to the majority of posters though, my childhood was a bed of roses, so I'd rather leave that thread for the support of those who really need it.

Siiiiigh - I know I'd feel terrible if I cut contact altogether. I have two DSis, one is the golden child and sees DM most days, the other is more like me and LC. It would cause a lot of issues to go NC. I wouldn't be able to without cutting off DF as well, and that would really upset me (more than NC with DM to be honest). Golden child DSis would probably cut me out to side with my parents. Other sis would find it difficult as she hosts family gatherings a few times a year, and again she is closer to DF so would have to see him upset.

It's all a big mess at the moment. It's simple in reality but doesn't feel that way to me.

Meerka - DH with no hesitation whatsoever. If he asked me to choose, my answer would be instant. However, he's too good a person to force me into a decision.

Actually you are an ideal person to visit and post on the Stately Home pile. I would urge you to post there. Many people do write along similar lines as you have done then they realise that actually their childhood was indeed not great at all.

The family of origin dynamic that you describe is pretty much typical of a narcissistic family of origin structure. Your role in this narcissistic family of origin was and still is one of scapegoat; such people indeed do have a rough time of it (understatement). The golden child does pay a price too btw but they are too unaware to realise that.

Your father is likely to be her hatchet man; he has also failed to protect you here from her malign influences. He being weak needed someone to idolise and perhaps is very much like her himself. He has also acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

I think we are supposed to be more forgiving of family yeah. But only up to a point. It´s ok to say This Is Enough, no more racist comments. You don't think they're racist? I do. Then put down the phone.

If your mother is vindictive though, clear all your childhood possessions out from her house first.

Very difficult regarding your sisters. Would it work to challenge her every single time she comes up with something awful? or alternatively, to quietly sidle away without an overt row - don't answer the phone to her more than once every couple of weeks, be 'busy' if she suggests meeting. Keep everything bright and breezy but never, ever give any personal information to her. Ever. Detach inside; observe her as a stranger, not your mother.

I haven't shared any personal info with DM for a while now. She actually made this easy for me, as whatever I mentioned she made about her - e.g. if I had a cold she'd had it so much worse. We tend to talk about plants, tv, books etc, nothing too personal.

I have detached to a large amount emotionally, or at least I thought I had. I confronted her a couple of years ago about everything. As soon as my little sis was born - the golden child - I had nothing from her. No time, emotion, or even material things. I was 9. I remember asking mum for money for a pair of jeans as it was the only thing I wore outside school and I only had one pair. She said she didn't have the money, then the next day went and bought dsis a party dress when she already had a cupboard full. I remember saving pocket money to go to the charity shop at about 11. Don't get me wrong, there was food to eat (as long as I didn't touch dsis' food that is) and I wasn't a raggedy child, I had all the basics I guess, it was just the difference between what dsis got and I didn't that I really noticed.

I moved out at 16 because I'd had enough. I took care of myself for the next few years, clinging to a bf who became my husband at 19. It was a controlling relationship but better than living at home. Then DM had trouble with dsis, who at 15 was in a physically abusive relationship, moved out to a hostel, got pregnant at 16, had the baby at 17. Then I was valued by DM as I listened to her for hours every night over the phone, often travelling the 1 1/2 hours back to her house when she was very upset.

Then my husband left, no warning, nothing. I didn't see him again for 2 years until he turned up asking for the marriage certificate so he could divorce me. I had a breakdown, admitted to mental health unit for 2 months, lost my house, had to move back in with my parents. I couldn't even move the ornaments out of the room so I could put my own there, and ended up moving out to my own house after 6 months against medical advice. I just needed a little space of my own, no matter how lonely it was. Meanwhile, dsis left her own relationship and moved back to my parents with her daughter, and was welcomed with open arms. She was allowed to move the ornaments and put her clothes away!

When I met DH a few years later, I guess I was finally in a secure enough position to see things for how they were, especially after she wouldn't visit me after I was admitted to hospital (medical emergency) unless she could find a dogsitter. After a couple more years I confronted her.

She agreed with everything I said. It was eerie. She said she could see things from my point of view and apologised.

A few months later she started pointing at pictures of me as a child saying I looked happy, so it couldn't have been all that bad. She then started saying I had re-written my history as my DH had been terribly abused (physically and mentally) by his parents. I told her I found this insulting and left.

Since then, very low contact, mainly by phone.

Sorry for epic post, I guess I needed that! Feel free to not read it!

You have been put between a rock and a hard place, OP. But going NC with your mother seems a bit OTT. Keeping contact to the minimum is probably a good idea though.

Crazy, sorry you had that. Sounds horrific. Sometimes, cats are nicer than mums. Sad, but, true.

However, it's way easier to type LTB or "go NC" than it is to do it.

In my (limited) experinece - reducing contact with my MIL has been a doddle. She's so self obsessed she hasn't actually noticed that we talk about once every 6 weeks instead of x3/week. It's been gradually whittled down and down, but, suits me. Weird opinions about anyone who's not red haired aren't the only issue there, obviously.

I can recommend being in touch for your own conscience, but, managing it for your own sanity - works a treat for me.

With the added caveat of that this is my MIL and not DM. Dh has less than no contact with her - leaves it all up to me...

Make this about you, not her. What can you accommodate, without sending yourself bonkers in the process? That's your guide.

Sweetheart, Stately Homes is EXACTLY where you should be!

I'll let the butler know you'll be popping in at some point

I'm so sorry she chose to treat you so badly. I'm so sorry everyone allowed her to.

What would happen if you just stopped phoning? You don't have to hive the family events the swerve just go even lower contact than you already are. Is there a time when she is out you can see your Dad?

Thanks everyone.

I could probably cut contact with her more, but it would mean losing contact with DF as well, which would devastate him.

She hardly leaves the house, and DF is still working at nearly 70 so doesn't do much else, so it would be nearly impossible to have regular contact just me and him.

I think, for now, I'll cut down the phone calls. A big event is coming up for DF's 70th birthday so I'll leave any confrontation for now, I don't want to spoil it for him, then have a word with DM once that's over. I really need to know what her views actually are, from her own mouth, before making a decision. If only to tell her what I think of her views, and why I don't want much to do with her.

I know that she'll rewrite what she's said and done (again) and DF will minimise it (again) but it's something I need to do for me if that makes sense.

With DF, he was always working long hours when I was a child, so didn't have much to do with raising us I guess. He's actually really hurt when I point out how unhappy I was as a child as he had no idea (yes, I know it was his job to know but I really think he thought he was doing the best he could earning as much as he could to support us). He's not perfect, and hates any sort of upset or confrontation, he'd rather go silent than argue back.

" I think, for now, I'll cut down the phone calls. A big event is coming up for DF's 70th birthday so I'll leave any confrontation for now, I don't want to spoil it for him, then have a word with DM once that's over. I really need to know what her views actually are, from her own mouth, before making a decision. If only to tell her what I think of her views, and why I don't want much to do with her.

I know that she'll rewrite what she's said and done (again) and DF will minimise it (again) but it's something I need to do for me if that makes sense".

And what then for you after that?.

Oh it makes perfect sense but you are really going around in circles by doing that and in any confrontation you will likely come off far worse. Narcissistic rage is indeed terrifying to behold. She knows perfectly well what you think and that you're hurt; she does not care that you hurt.

I would not let your Dad off the hook here because he has also allowed this to happen. He has indeed acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life; he is a typical weak bystander to a wife he on some level likely idolises.

DM doesn't get angry, when I confronted her a couple of years ago she agreed with everything I said, got a bit teary, then a few weeks / months later started rewriting everything, showing me pictures of me as a child and saying I looked happy so it couldn't have been that bad. She then accused me of exaggerating things as my lovely DH had been terribly abused by his parents (a whole other thread) - why would I do something as sick as that?!

DF is so passive it's unbelievable. He'll put up with anything to keep the family together. Yes, I agree it makes him weak. I don't think he idolises DM though, I know from speaking to him that he is frustrated and often angry by her behaviour. He won't say or do anything to cause an argument though, it's so strange to see - he'd rather be unhappy himself than cause confrontation.

If DM really annoys him about something he just goes really quiet with her for a few days rather than confront her, that way nothing ever gets resolved or learnt by either of them. It's really unhealthy.

Personally, I see arguments with DH as a way of learning, compromising, they may be horrible but they clear the air (we do hardly ever argue I should say!) so I don't understand DF's behaviour. I guess I should be glad that I haven't learnt that behaviour!

Attilla - I know that confronting her won't resolve anything. I know she won't change. But, by doing this and confirming my suspicions at least I can reduce contact even more with a clear conscience. I guess what I'm doing is looking for more reasons, to make me feel better about my decision. I'd also guess that I'm secretly hoping that she takes back what she said / apologises / explains that I've got the wrong end of the stick but I doubt this will happen somehow.

I stopped wanting her approval a long time ago. She will tell me how proud she is of me (I've clawed my way up the career path and am in a ok position at work), but I don't think she sees the real me, just who she wants to see.

I'll make sure that I support DH and will not minimize this. He has my full support.

Keep the nasty woman away from your child. I find it completely abusive that she would vote for UKIP and say stuff like that around her grandchild. If I were you Id read her the freakin riot act, no holds barred, and see if it hits home and if not, then she has no rights to see your child.

Btw if you still would want to see your dad and not your mum, he is capable of visiting on his own.

Ps sorry I read that as DC for some reason! But I think the same still applies (and you might have a DC one day, then what! She needs to understand how toxic she is with this racist attitude).

Blue - no problem! Thank you for your response. You're right, racism is unacceptable in any circumstances.