Changing conversation dynamics with my enabler mother (narcissistic father) to talk about long ignored subjects

[hazelnutnips]

I am trying to start acting differently around my parents, but I keep falling into the same patterns. I don't see them often- my mother once a month or so, my father much less. My father is narcissistic in personality and my mother enables him and tries to keep everyone happy.

I can chat about pleasantries with my mother, but I want to change the dynamics, and stop brushing everything under the carpet. In particular she really needs to think about her future. My father is starting to get unwell and she will end up his carer if she stays. Their practical situation is messy (they have never planned ahead for their future, my father has his own weird priorities that they follow instead) and she, or they, need to plan for their retirement to avoid a future crisis. I want to tell her that he is abusive and cruel, and that she is a fool to stay and care for him after the way he treated us, but my tongue gets frozen and I don't say that.

Usually my conversations with my mother go like this- I bring up the subject of her future, she tries to change the subject, I keep bringing it back, she agrees 'yes I will think about it', but I don't think she is actually listening, she is agreeing to shut me up! When I press her further she says 'please leave it, please don't talk about it', then I realise that I have fallen into nagging her, and she changes the subject.

I know that some of you will say that I can't change her choices. I just think that everyone has got into the habit of not speaking up about my father's appalling behaviour, and my mother doesn't realise how utterly dreadful he is, because we all ignore him rather than challenge him. When I relay criticisms others have made of him she seems genuinely surprised, I think she has no idea how bad he is.

Also if she doesn't act and a crisis occurs in future I will not want to step in if it means disadvantaging my DC and DH. I do need to say this to her in advance though.

On the one hand she is also a victim of him, on the other she didn't protect me from him as a child, so I have sympathy for her but it is not endless.

DH has suggested writing her a factual letter. Is this a good idea? Will she be more likely to listen to this? How will our dynamics change afterwards?

I would also like to avoid brushing everything under the carpet in conversations, but when I try this I fall into the habit of nagging her. DH thinks this is because she tries to ignore what I say and change the subject, so unless I go along with it I end up feeling like I'm nagging her, and she just nods and pretends to agree because this is her family role. What can I do to change our dynamics?

It is a good idea to write a letter but I'm afraid that the chances of it - or anything else- working are very small.

Waking up would demand huge amounts of decision making and action, not in a vacuum but in teh environment of a man who, if he is narcississtic, will be vicious towards her and make her life a hundred times worse than it is now.

She will also have to face the current reality - and from what you say she doesn't even remotely realise how bad it is. She'd have to have enough mental and physical vitality and flexibility to be able to allow herself to face the situation and to plan to get out. After you've lived decades with a toxic person and learned to keep your head down, very few people have that vitality. A few, but not many.

Your mother has a track record for decades of not facing things and her response to your attempts to point out the future is the same - sticking her neck in the sand. It's not likely she'll change sadly.

I think all you can do is write that letter. And maybe keep saying in conversation "oh if you chose to move to XXX you could do this" not in an encouraging way, but in a matter of fact way. The words "chose to do" are very importnat here because no matter how ground down, people can still choose to take action to free themselves. Repeating them may eventually start to counteract her conditioning.

But you can't force her to leave. You may have to face it that her future is with her husband no matter what ... and that yes, you cannot come to her when you have your commitments of young children and DH at home. It's hard :(

I think you're trying to take on far too much here OP. Decades of conditioning and denial and minimising can't be undone with a conversation, or a few conversations, or a letter. It sounds like she just cannot or will not face up to what is really going on and is asking you not to make her try. I completely understand how painful this is, there's a similar dynamic in my own family.

You are absolutely right to prioritise yourself and your own family here. Toxic families can suck the very life out of you if your own boundaries are not rock solid. It it comes down to a choice between your mother and yourself, it sounds like you will choose yourself every time and for what its worth, I think this is by far the healthier choice. It's a choice I have made myself many times. It doesn't mean its easy, but this just may not be something that you can fix.

Oh dear. Exactly the same dynamic here.

Ime she didn't protect me when I was a child, even though she loves me. I've learned she's not going to break the habit (habit! SO much more than that ) of a lifetime...

She is effectively in a cult (of two). I pick my moments these days, allowing huge swathes of shit slip by. If I do speak, I speak in statements: 'he is a brute' 'he takes everything that matters from you'. No emotion; statements This is rare, though. She is so steeped in it and can be very cutting.

I'm sorry to say I have tried everything over the years, all to no avail. My job is to protect myself. I see her - him because they're a package - bcs she's old and it would kill her if I cut her off. It is a crap situation for me tbh, far from ideal.

I wish there was a Freedom Programme for the aged. They are ancient now.

I don't think you can make your mother's choices for her. She has politely asked you to leave the topic so I think you need to respect that.

It it comes down to a choice between your mother and yourself, it sounds like you will choose yourself every time and for what its worth, I think this is by far the healthier choice.

agreed with what lotta says

What Lotta has written here in its entirety.

Forget writing a letter to her as that, no matter how nicely put, could be used against you. Your mother gets what she wants out of this relationship and has made her choice i.e. her husband. She failed abjectly and continues to fail to protect you from her H.

You cannot change them but you can change how you react to them. Not seeing either parent would be more beneficial to you as a family unit. They need to be protected from such malign influences.

Thanks for all your replies, especially those from personal experience, most of my friends have straightforward families, it is helpful to know I'm not the only one grappling with this.

don't think you can make your mother's choices for her. I don't think I can make her change her mind, but I don't want to keep playing along with her charade of ignoring my father's appalling behaviour (past and present) and their bad situation in terms of no future planning. I think the wider family also avoid saying these things directly to her, although to each other they say the situation is a mess. Yes she absolutely encourages us to avoid rocking her boat. But I don't want to go along with this. I want to be able to say what I think. Also when my DCs are older I don't want them to see that their mother can't speak her opinion in front of Granny, I want to be a stronger role model. If she has any change of heart because I express my opinions then fantastic, if not I still think that it is healthier for me to be more open. Sorry, but I don't think it is reasonable of her to have raised me in an abusive household (physical and emotional) and then expect me to never express any negative opinions of her still being with my father.

However it isn't as simple as saying what I think as she keeps changing the subject, minimising, meaningless platitudes etc, then if I don't carry on talking about the weather it feels like I'm nagging her. Then I feel like I'm talking to her as my father does, chasing her and harassing her.

The words "chose to do" are very importnat that is a phrase I can use. There is a kind of amnesia in our family that she can choose to do something without my father's agreement. She will say 'oh he would never agree to that' and that is the end of conversation.

think you're trying to take on far too much here OP. true.

speak in statements: 'he is a brute' 'he takes everything that matters from you'. No emotion; statements this is a good way of talking. If she tried to disagree (she would probably say 'oh, he isn't that bad') I could factually disagree, but without trying to persuade her. Maybe that is my error, I am trying to persuade her, which is probably hopeless, when I would be wiser to just state my opinion, as what I actually want is to be able to express myself.

Forget writing a letter to her as that, no matter how nicely put, could be used against you How might it be used against me? She definitely wouldn't let my father see it, she has always been the appeasing go between when we have argued, and she always avoids upsetting him.

Your mother gets what she wants out of this relationship and has made her choice she thinks that other people admire their position and lifestyle, actually this is not the case, several people have told me previously that they think my parents look silly and showy (and prob more think it than tell me). When she says something that shows her pride in their situation, I wonder whether to respond honestly and say they look ludicrous.

not seeing either parent would be more beneficial to you as a family unit I recently told my mother not to invite my father to a family event at mine as I thought he is a bad influence for my DC. She tried to persuade me but I was firm. She literally hasn't mentioned him since, it is noticeable as she would normally often talk about him. I'm not sure if it is unfair to have her as a bit of a go between rather than me tell my father that I am not involving him in family occasions I organise. I don't think he will notice himself for a long time as he is very wrapped up in himself. I literally can't imagine telling him though, I haven't had a normal conversation with him for well over a decade.

In my case the situation got - on one level - easier after my father died. My daughter didn't have to witness the peculiar dynamics of their marriage, and my mother's behaviour on her own is a little more reasonable.

I have recently managed to talk to my mother briefly about one of the factors that - in my opinion - made my father so difficult. But not really about my anger with them both, or the effects their behaviour had on me.

I have spoken rather more freely about the situation to my two siblings. One of them was supportive.

I visit my mother every few months out of a sense of duty.

It's difficult having to cope with caring - to an extent - for an elderly parent who failed to provide appropriate care for me.

I think one's options in this situation are quite limited. Getting help and support for yourself is probably the priority.

she thinks that other people admire their position and lifestyle ... When she says something that shows her pride in their situation, perhaps you could say something on lines of "not everyone sees it that way" or stronger "some people don't see it like that"

I think what everyone says is right - keep everything you say unemotional. In a way I'd say accept who she is and the life she has now, rather than what might be, that would make it easier to remain genuinely unemotional (though not stopping speaking of different options in passing).

I think you are strong and right to say what you think even if it will rock the boat.

'Sorry, but I don't think it is reasonable of her to have raised me in an abusive household (physical and emotional) and then expect me to never express any negative opinions of her still being with my father'

I completely agree with you and understand how you feel (similar experience in my family). You absolutely have a right to feel that this is unfair and unjust. However, it sounds like she is just not able to willing to allow you to express your feelings about this. With her being so unable or unwilling to hear you, are you actually getting anything positive out of talking to her about this?

"How might it be used against me? She definitely wouldn't let my father see it, she has always been the appeasing go between when we have argued, and she always avoids upsetting him".

Being the enabler she is, she will always defend him to the hilt. She has and will put him always first and above anyone else. This is also why she will not like any letter that you write criticising her H because by turn you are being critical of her own choice of H. Anyway her own father too may have been very much like her H is, he may well have been a narcissist.

She will continue to do la la la and stick her fingers in her ears. Its far easier for her to do that, what did she exactly learn about relationships when growing up from her own parents?. She will never accept that she has also played a role in your family of origin's overall dysfunction.

If you do not want to continue the family charade the only way to do that is to cease playing out your own role within that familial dynamic. Detach and ignore.

I wouldn't follow up statements she disagrees with eg 'not everyone sees it like that'. Just leave the statements hanging? It's actually more powerful to not follow up (also haranguing to follow up tbh).

Sorry to be instructive - you can't invite her and not him. They are a package, she will be insulted he is not invited, it's putting her in an impossible situation. Plus, she will choose him. Every time.

Sorry, but I don't think it is reasonable of her to have raised me in an abusive household (physical and emotional) and then expect me to never express any negative opinions of her still being with my father.

You like to think of your mother as the victim, yourself as the plucky survivor and your father as the abuser.

No.

They both abused you. Your mother doesn't like you talking about it. Of course not, she sacrificed you for her lifestyle, continues to do so and is proud of what she gained out of it.

You find this too painful to accept. A mother's love is a deep human need.

So, you desperately push her to accept the role of victim who has the scales scrubbed from her eyes by the plucky survivor so she can break free from the abuse. It is a nice fantasy. In the fantasy you are the powerful rescuer, she truly loves you, deep down she actually loves you more than the lifestyle and your father, yes the scales will fall from her eyes, she will cry at your feet and beg forgiveness for what she put you through, you will forgive her and you will hold hands walking into bright lives in the future together.

Except she's not playing is she? Because your fantasy is a fantasy. She is an abuser too and will not accept for one moment that anything is wrong with him or her.

That's what happened in my mind in my 20s anyway. Then I realised I was deluding myself, ignoring the obvious truth, ignoring the actual EVIDENCE, ignoring the actual WORDS she spoke directly to me, ignoring years of her ACTIONS, her ONGOING ACTIONS. I was twisting myself in knots trying to force the data into a false hypothesis. I am a trained scientist FFS!!! I cried for weeks, had lots of counselling and came out of it stronger and much much healthier.

Someone on MN once said "The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off".

Yeah. I'm pissed off.

Sometimes I wonder which of the parents is the actual narcissist.

what did she exactly learn about relationships when growing up from her own parents? it's particularly odd as her parents appear to have been happy functioning people, and her siblings are apparently happily married. Of course I don't know the innards of their relationships. I suppose that reinforced my belief that she was a victim of him. Although it is obviously more complicated.

Being the enabler she is, she will always defend him to the hilt. She seems to view him as difficult because he is incapable and needing care and help, rather than difficult because he is selfish and controlling. She will say that he is self centred, unreasonable, rude to her, ungrateful for her help, that he wouldn't care for her in the way she has cared for him, although she sounds a bit disloyal saying this. But she won't think about leaving, or scaling back what she does for him, or acknowledging that he chooses to act this way. She seems to regard him as you might a demanding toddler acting out or someone with severe learning disabilities who doesn't understand social norms- that it is challenging to look after him, but it is a fact of life and she just needs to get on with it, as he can't help it. He can help it by the way! He does moderate his behaviour when it suits him, and she sees this.

She does often see family without him btw, he makes it clear he finds us boring so it isn't unusual for her to visit on her own. She does bring him to significant occasions, I imagine because she wants to keep up appearances. I wouldn't have been surprised if he had stayed at home anyway, and previously I might have said 'oh, he will probably find it boring, maybe he would prefer to stay at home' and she would have agreed 'yes, he wouldn't enjoy it, I'll ask if he wants to stay behind, or I could drop him off at a place he'd rather visit on my way to yours' so we wouldn't see him but the image of a functional family would be maintained. what is different this time is that I was honest about not wanting him there, rather than skirting around it. I think it was the honesty she disliked, as she said 'why don't I bring him to your town and he can go to the local museum (on his own) rather than come to your house as he will enjoy that more'. Ffs!

My mum says her marriage is none of my business. But it was my business when I was growing up in that shit (and went on to replicate it, as did all my siblings). Perhaps it's an info thing - we know all about abusive, or healthy, dynamics; they didn't. Back in the day she seriously considered leaving him but it was extremely unusual then. How different everything could have been!

I have said to her 'you're in an abusive relationship'. Sometimes I add 'but you don't know it'. But as she doesn't even read these days - she's blind - I'm not sure she'd ever come across info about abuse. But she does listen to radio 4 so maybe?

But she won't think about leaving, or scaling back what she does for him, or acknowledging that he chooses to act this way.

The same could be said for you and her.

Perhaps it's an info thing - we know all about abusive, or healthy, dynamics; they didn't Yes my mother thinks that everyone is inherently reasonable, she is always struggling to understand why other people she knows make odd decisions and trying to reason with them. She is worried about a friend, and when I said that friend's husband is clearly emotionally abusive, it was like I was speaking a foreign language, she thinks that he just needs to be reasoned with or a practical solution sought, 'if they got a microwave he wouldn't get angry about cold dinners' type of responses.

If she doesn't act and a crisis occurs in future I will not want to step in if it means disadvantaging my DC and DH. I do need to say this to her in advance though.

OK, on the purely practical side, I agree you need to say you won't be the safety net, especially if you think they are relying on that.

I believe you need to say it to both of them. You could say it very simply by email: "I am worried about your preparations for retirement, especially in light of Dad's deteriorating health. I know your private financial affairs are none of my business, however, I feel I must point out that if there is a crisis, I will have to put my own family first, which means I might not be able to help you out. Love Hazel."

They might actually listen if you take all the LTB subtext out of it.

Your mum wouldn't be the first woman in her 60s (?) to decide she'd rather stick with him for a few more years until he dies than to admit to herself and the world that she made a huge mistake repeatedly for 30 (40?) years.

My parents were conned by con artists a home improvements firm recently. I managed to get the order stopped and their hefty deposit refunded. My mum insists the young man who called at the house was a lovely young man who wouldn't have conned them. Yes mother I said.

Everyone is good in her eyes - bit of tweeking and all's well - no-one means to be bad. Including my thug of a father who regularly chews her over so badly she's ill in bed with the stress. He also takes me aside, complaining that he has a lot of trouble with her: 'you don't know what I live with'

'Sometimes I wonder which of the parents is the actual narcissist.'

Sadly its not always a choice. Both of mine are. FUN TIMES

Re the naivety thing, its very frustrating. My friend is like this. My in laws have a horrible relationship and he has treated her terribly over the years, he's a real traditional 'master of the house' type. MIL told me that she had practically begged for a new kitchen for about 20 years but when she was doing all the cooking, it made no odds to him, so fell on deaf ears. Now that they're both retired and he's discovered he quite enjoys cooking, suddenly there's a brand new kitchen being installed. I told friend this story and she said 'well if she's wanted one for over 20 years, then she should be pleased!' Just couldn't get her head around how small and invisible MIL was made to feel by FIL's nonsense. Friend's own relationship is pretty interesting stuff too though.....