Paranoid and critical mother

[Beaglebaby]

My DM is possibly a narc or BPD. I have posted on here before and on stately homes (probably different user name) but I'm usually just a lurker. Don't want to drip feed but also don't want to write a massive post about things in the past so today I'm wondering if paranoia is something that goes along with whatever she has? I've only really noticed it in the past couple of years since I got pregnant with DC1. Things she has been unhappy about/tried to warn me about include not taking baby DC on public transport, getting her to wear a face mask out and about to protect from germs (we live in Asia, but not in a country that is considered highly polluted- people don't generally wear these masks day to day), not travelling on a long-haul flight with 8 month old DC because of possible germs/diseases in the aircraft, should not be allowing DC to submerge head underwater during swimming lessons until the age of 4 because of drowning risk, not allowing new DC (due this month) to enter a swimming pool because of the risk of catching polio, bronchiolitis, a UTI in the pool water. She was unhappy when we moved DC to own room at 8 months because 'you've got to be careful, someone could just come and steal your baby in the night'. WTF. Demanding to know the age of our nanny incase DH has an affair with her, telling me never to allow anyone except myself or DH to change DC nappy or allow her to be alone in a room with a man because every man is a potential paedophile and you never know what goes through their mind. This includes her own son and her husband. She said this to 26yr.old DB that she wouldn't trust him alone with DC. Obviously he was very upset at the suggestion that in her eyes he was capable of molesting his niece. Her husband is a lovely man and me and DH would trust him have never been in a position where he'd need to take care of DC alone but for example she would not allow him to take her 5 minutes down the road to see the local livestock near their home alone. He read her stories and helped put her to bed but she made sure she sat in the room and didn't leave for a second. He doesn't know that she feels this way about him. The paedophile stuff I suspect stems from stuff in her own childhood. She doesn't trust anyone. If she is home alone in her tiny village during the day and someone rings the bell she doesn't answer incase it is an axe wielding murderer when it's more likely to be a courier delivering something or someone handing out leaflets. When she has visited she has told me not to leave my handbag downstairs incase the nanny steals money. So anyway. The latest thing is that DC2 is now due and DC1 will stay at home with the nanny. DM thinks it's a bad idea to leave DC with a stranger overnight (nanny has lived in our home for nearly a year) because deep down we don't really know what anyone is capable of. She might decide to go for a night out/visit a friend and leave DC because we will never know. There are so many things that are just illogical about this- nanny lives in our house, so not exactly a stranger. Is off every weekend and free to go out/visit friends as she pleases. Why would she chose the one night we need her to babysit to go out on a 'secret' night out instead of just going on Friday or Saturday? I have leaned there is just no point trying to say my pov, so ignored it. Now I'm getting 'can't you all stay in the hospital together with DC? You can't be too careful these days. I just don't want anything to happen to DC.' This level of paranoia isn't normal, is it? Is it because of her disorder/illness/whatever it is? I'm just getting fed up with the suggestions that I'm endangering my child by letting her go swimming or by letting her get a runny nose from other children. Anyone else experiencing this? Is ignoring the bear tactic? I know (based on how awful it was last time) that it's just going to get worse over next few weeks as new arrival gets closer and actual birth and onwards happens. There will be a million things that we should or should not be doing.

Is there any way of distancing yourself from her?
She definitely has some mental health issues going on. Is there any way you could discuss her paranoia with her Dr?

We have a physical distance of nearly 11000km (thank goodness), but she still messages me to tell me all these things. I'm ignoring the current 'concerns' about the stranger nanny that lives with us. I just want the idiocy to stop, but wondering if maybe she can't help it? I find it all very passive aggressive criticism of my parenting- I am obviously not as concerned about the welfare of my child because she personally wouldn't leave her child with a stranger overnight as you cant be too careful these days etc. and the nanny is probably planning a few hours getaway whilst we are not around but I'm a crap parent who is taking that risk.

My DB has a very volatile relationship with her. My other DB went NC about 2 or 3 years ago. Dementia, schizophrenia or OCD is not something I've ever considered. Her behaviour is usually overshadowed by her narc/BPD tendencies. Self-obsession, criticism, unsupportive, downright mean, nobody loves me, I should throw myself off a bridge etc. etc . I guess the paranoia is what's getting to me at this moment because the whole hospital/nanny thing is what she's pushing on me right now. With regards to seeing a Dr, it just will not happen because she doesn't believe there is anything wrong. She 100% believes she is right so what need for a Dr would there be? She is a hcp herself but her expertise runs into every field known to man.

I would think she is in urgent need of a psychiatric assessment for paranoid schizophrenia.

I know her behaviour is a pita for you but living with that level of paranoia willbe miserable for her. She really needs help. There are meds that could work to make her life so much better.

I've had very similar problems with 2 members of my own family and I suspect you are about to find out 2 things. The first is how tight patient confidentiality is. Doctors can't discuss someone else with you without their consent. You cannot just request a mental health assessment for some one else. Confidentiality, human rights and consent are huge considerations when dealing with mental health, well meaning relatives with genuine concern will find efforts to get help for someone else obstructed by these considerations. The second thing you are already realising is that paranoid illnesses are THE hardest to treat. Mental health workers have told me this over and over. The person doesn't believe they have a problem, it's everyone else.Even when they accept there is a problem and accept treatment the side effects of drugs and their paranoia makes them think they are being poisoned so they stop taking the drugs. Your mothers husband sounds like a stabilising influence on her. I smile at the other posts here, people who like me 10 years ago think that an assessment, the right pill and they are cured. Sorry not to be more positive but I think you have a couple of options. One is to accept she is ill, separate the illness from the person,develop your own coping skills even if it's just to say STOP and hang up on her. The other and I don't say this lightly, is to cut contact.You aren't there yet but there may come a time her illness starts to make you ill and you need to preserve your own sanity. Paranoia and psychosis is the cruellest of illnesses, the very people that care and try to help become suspects in the mind of the affected.

Wow I just had a quick read up on paranoid personality disorder. Did not realise that was a thing. But I also think there may be other issues such as borderline personality disorder or narcissistic spectrum disorder- can these things be intertwined?

I get what you're all saying about her seeing a doctor or having psychiatric assessment but there's just no way that will happen.

What you want i.e. for all the idiocy to stop, will not happen. I would describe her behaviour as disturbed. This is who she is. She has never wanted to seek the necessary help.

It is NOT your fault she is the ways she is; her own birth family did that lot of damage to her.

I think that ultimately you are going to have to do what your brother has already done, i.e. go no contact with her.

She may well have any number of personality disorders here along with her narcissistic/BPD tendencies but these are very difficult to treat and your mother is already saying that there is nothing wrong with her. You're going to have to let her go; this comment she has made about throwing herself off a bridge could also be construed as being very controlling and designed to keep you concerned/be her audience. I presume you are the only relative who actually bothers at all with her now.

Block all her incoming messages from your phone; she could well end up making you ill herself and self preservation is necessary.

You need to grieve for the relationship you and your brother should have had but did not.

If she is too toxic/difficult for you to deal with its the same for your vulnerable and defenceless children as well.

From what you have written, she does not seem paranoid, certainly not psychotic or schizophrenic but does seem to have anxiety issues. She may also have OCD tendencies.
People like this, as said before, are very hard to deal with and will refuse to be medicated.
Try and ignore her and be glad that her problems are not shared by you. Just think how hard it must be to live in her shoes.

ime mental illness behaviours are intertwined and you might think it's one thing one day and another the next, trying to second guess a 'label' is pointless. You are dealing with the behaviour not the diagnosis. A diagnosis is only relevant if she seeks treatment.

There are stable periods and other times when behaviour intensifies.
If her husband dies before her expect the shit to really hit the fan.

Thank you all for your input. As I mentioned earlier, the paranoia is just a little part of it. I have previously posted about her general narcissism and toxicity. I don't feel ready to go NC yet but if she keeps pushing and pushing it is something that might have to happen in future. 7to25, I get what you're saying thinking about how hard it must be to live in her shoes but am really struggling to be sympathetic. Basically because she is mean. And has brought the state of our relationship on herself (perhaps not her fault because of her own birth family) with her criticisms and nastiness etc. At the moment, she is feeling very woe is me, why don't my kids like me, I'm an unloved mother on mothers' day etc. Things are becoming very uncomfortable. Our message exchanges and calls are cold and meaningless (how are you, how's the weather etc. No depth to the discussion etc. She only wants to talk to my DC). It's just all so strained.... and weird. She is due to visit next month for two weeks when we will all be fake and pretend everything is fine. Her husband is the stabilising force. She is better behaved when he is around and has managed to hide a lot of her true self from him. I think for the moment I just have to continue with our simple communications and ignore any other crap that she spouts. Sorry just letting it all out!

WildBillfemale I think what you say rings true- other times I've posted people have said it sounds like BPD and others NPSD. This is the first time I've heard of PPD. So it does seem to be one thing one day and something else the next. But what does it really matter what it's called. Things are just not right. Her and her husband are both very young. I just can't get my head round that she thinks he is capable of sexual abuse. Why would you live a life with someone if you genuinely thought that was possible. For the record, DH and I totally do not think that. He himself would be horrified if he knew. She lately said that she plans to retire to her home country because there is nothing in UK for her anymore. Nothing or nobody that she is close to and she wants to reconnect with her original family because she knows they love and miss her (very loosely concealed digs and passive aggressiveness there I think). I'm like, what about your husband??! It makes me think she doesn't care about him? I'm aware I really am rambling now. Thanks for reading.

Please Do let it all out as often as you need! don't underestimate the ripple effect of dealing with mental health issues. If she doesn't think there is anything wrong (and there is) don't waste your own energy trying to work out the whys the whats and how to 'cure' her - you can't.
I could have written your posts, the behaviour sounds just like my mothers over the years, one by one my sibblings went no contact and I too at the age of 40 decided I just couldn't do it anymore so cut ties too. It was having a huge impact on my own mental health. Sadly one of my sibblings suffered serious mental health issues too and recently died an extremely tragic death. My mum has also passed on now.

If there is one thing I would like to sress from my experience of dealing with these issues is do not underestimate the affect it can have on your own mental health. It's insidious, it occupies your thoughts, it causes no end of angst and worry, you doubt your judgement. Not a day goes by when you don't trawl the internet looking for that article that will tell you what to say to make it all go away. I'm 50 this year and I have spent most of my adult life exposed to my mothers and then sibblings mental health issues. They have has an impact on all family members including myself. Only now 6 months after my sibblings death - and I feel very guilty saying this but will, I feel gloriously, happily unburdened and free from it all.

Just to add something else. A mental health professional told me the best way of thinking about mental health issues is compare the differant behaviours/conditions to stages of cancer. Some if caught early are curable, others can only at best be managed.

I'd also suggest looking to the mental health charities for support, chat rooms etc - They understand the impact mental illness has on relatives. You will quickly grow frustrated of well meaning people who say 'speak to her doctor' or think a diagnosis and a pill will be the cure. When people talk to me I know straight away if they've personally experienced dealing with serious mental health issues or if their words are well meant but ignorant advice.

Beaglebaby

I was wondering why you are not ready to go no contact with her as yet (its a genuine question). Is it because you still have a degree of FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) with regards to her?. Is it because you're the last one left who seemingly has anything to do with her at all?.

Her H likely enables her behaviour and may also act as her hatchet man as well. I was not all that surprised about your mother making comments to retire to her home county without mentioning her H once, this is typical as well. Women like your mother cannot do relationships and it is more likely than not he will be discarded by her at some point if he cannot tolerate her behaviours.

At the very least I would certainly cancel her next visit. She will not be a good influence around your children. Narcissistic people in particular make for being deplorably bad grandparent role models.

Attila yes I definitely have the FOG. Younger DB1 just told her to F off a few years ago and has refused any attempts by her to make contact. Younger DB2 and her have a very strange relationship. They are constantly falling out and don't see eye to eye on anything and will get into full blown arguments about it. He refers to her as a cnt, tells her to stop fcking hassling him to her face or in messages etc. Yet they still maintain contact. He sees her more than I do because he lives a couple of hours away and will occasionally stay at her house when he is passing through. She meets up with him if she is in his city. I think on some level despite saying he hates her, he must still love and want/need her? As for me, I have definitely been afraid of doing things she disapproves of in the past (but think I'm getting stronger at just ignoring her or omitting things to avoid the criticism). I'm the only daughter, the one with the DC and I suppose the only close 'friend' she has (except for her enabler best friend who also has serious issues with her own kids. They bond over their mutual 'why don't our kids like us, we did our best') so I guess that's where I feel obligated. I'd feel guilty leaving her 'on her own', especially now that I realise she doesn't really take her marital commitment seriously or view him as a lasting stronghold in her life. But if the FOG is all part of this and what I've been conditioned to feel, how will I ever be rid of it other than if what happened with Wildbillfemale happens (she says she now finally feels free).

The upcoming trip can't be cancelled as they have paid a lot of money for it and it would definitely mean the end. I'm not ready to face dealing with that , toddler, newborn etc. YET. Her husband is coming too and he is a nice and reasonable man- things are easier when he is around.

I just don't know what's going to happen or be said over the next couple of weeks with this hospital stay coming up! My friend said she'd be happy to back up a lie and say that DC stayed with them- but I just know that DM will think that's a bad idea too (incase the husband is a paedophile).

Wow I just had a quick read up on paranoid personality disorder. Did not realise that was a thing. But I also think there may be other issues such as borderline personality disorder or narcissistic spectrum disorder- can these things be intertwined?

yes they can.

Or if it goes far enough you can put it down to her being a very sick lady on top of her mean-spirited nature.

Is your contact mostly by phone or mail? if it's mail, then set up a folder and go through it once a week. if it's by phone, set a time for her to call and do not answer the phone at other times if it shows her number. it's maybe worth quietly saying to her husband to contact you directly if there is an emergency or something you really must know. Btw, doesn't he hear her criticism and complaints and see something of the real person?

If in the longer term you feel you have to cut her out for your sanity and well being - well, that's what you have to do. Don't underestimate the effect that a critical happiness-vampire has on you. People's mental health can improve beyond all recognition when they are freed from hypercritical, paranoid grinding-down.

I do think that you need to step back from her emotionally. She's your mum but she's doing your head in. If you can step back and detach, that will make it easier to endure the contact you have and act with love towards her as far as is possible towards such a difficult person (even if you don't feel much love any more).

"The upcoming trip can't be cancelled as they have paid a lot of money for it and it would definitely mean the end. I'm not ready to face dealing with that , toddler, newborn etc. YET. Her husband is coming too and he is a nice and reasonable man- things are easier when he is around".

TBH that is even more reason for this whole visit of theirs to be cancelled now. So what if they have paid a lot of money for this visit, its not worth the sky high emotional cost to you as a family unit. You'll be dealing with your two children as well as these awful people as well. You do not need them around.

Her H may well be her buffer but he may well be her hatchet man and enabler as well. Such men always need someone to idolise, he probably does idolise her to some extent. Neither are good people to be around you and your children; they will make you both anxious and upset and your children will pick up on it.

Thought you were in FOG and that is why I mentioned it. FOG is probably also preventing you from finally pulling the plug on your mother and her enabler H. You're likely one of the only people who actually bother with her at all; such people have no friends and you are simply being used by her as her own narcissistic supply. You've been conditioned by her to put your own needs and wants last, to serve her only.

Hi Beaglebaby,

Re your other comment:-
"I'd feel guilty leaving her 'on her own', especially now that I realise she doesn't really take her marital commitment seriously or view him as a lasting stronghold in her life".

Ah the good ol' obligation rears its ugly head yet again. All this impacts on your life and mental health to its overall detriment. As mentioned before, narcissists cannot do relationships and he will likely get the boot if he does not conform to her demands.

You are really going to have to deal with this properly at some point in the near future by seeing a therapist who has no bias about keeping families together. You need to find someone who has experience of narcissism within families.

Your mother is not on her own and if the relationship does fail, that is their doing and responsibility and not yours. People like your mother do not have or even want friends, they use people to their own ends.

Do you think she has given you any real consideration her entire life, I would say not. She certainly does not feel any degree of FOG whatsoever.

The "Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers" website would be worth a read as would be "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown.