Was I abusive?

[Feelingconfuseddotcom]

Need perspectives on an argument with DH please. I will try to be objective. Sorry for the length.

Background - DH and I have been together for 10 years with 2 DC. I have always had a issue with DH's anger - blowing up at minor things - and last year expressed that I was unsure about our relationship if he didn't get help. He has just completed a course of counselling which he's found very beneficial. DH's anger stems from difficult circumstances growing up (including two instances of sexual abuse). When he's blown up in the past, I've either kept calm or cried. I don't get angry much - only once in the past that I can recall when I was really angry which brings me to today...

We had a big row this morning in front of the DC. He afterwards admitted that he had been provoking me (unintentionally) but I got really angry - shouting at him and waving my hands - enough that he thought I was going to hit him. The thought of hitting him had never entered my head (i've never hit him or anyone including the kids or anything and for the record, he hasn't hit me or the kids though has lashed out previously at inaminate objects). He said I needed to calm down as the kids were scared. (Afterwards my elder DC said he was scared when daddy said he thought I was going to hit him, that I really was.)

Even after we both calmed down, he says I was being abusive and need to accept that.

This has really upset me and I can't stop thinking about it. He's right that I shouldn't have lost control esp in front of kids. But him calling me abusive for one argument really hurts because this is not my pattern of behaviour - if anything it's his! I've never accused him of abuse but he so readily applies it to me. Part of the reason I'm so upset is because of the kids. I feel like he's planted the idea in their mind that I abuse their father (during the argument he asked the kids "why is mummy being so mean to me?" and given what my eldest said)!

I'm so confused and really can't accept his analysis. But that's what abusive people do - they don't recognise their behaviour and blame the other person. So i need some straight talking. Was I being abusive and what should I do if I was?

Thanks for reading so far.

His actions are very passive aggressive aren't they? Winding you up til you flip, then telling your DCs that daddy was scared of mummy.

he is abusive, uses anger to control you and now accuses you of it.

typical script I am afraid. tell him to FTFO

It sounds like you were abusive on this occasion as you shouldn't have been shouting and waving your arms about.

However your husband was abusive to the kids by trying to draw them into the argument, which is just absolutely pathetic.

Maybe the two of you would benefit from counselling together, focussed on handling disagreements and communicating better?

did you genuinely scare him? if so i think that is abusive behaviour but from what you've said it was a one off - doesn't make it ok but i think it's a difference between one off abusive behaviour (intimidation/threat etc) and being abusive if that makes sense.

What a cheek! He's the one who can't control himself, then he winds you up to a point where you react - I'd not be letting this go, he sounds an idiot.

Sometimes its not helpful to put labels on behavior. What I would say is that you two should not have been arguing in front of your children. You don't want to frighten your children by seeing you at your worst.

I wouldn't say abusive is the right word if this doesn't happen regularly though. Maybe you were "angry", is the right terminology.

But isn't "she always winds me up/provokes me, so its her fault" a phrase which men say to justify abuse sometimes? I don't think its wise to blame him for winding you up. Just accept responsibility for any behavior you elicited which were uncalled for and maybe try and work these issues out.

Does he display his anger at people outside the home? Or just to you and and the kids?

You are saying what I think...but I'm really second guessing myself...are you just telling me what I want to hear?

Also, any advice for when we next talk? We could just leave it - I'm away for work for a couple of days tonight.

Also, forgot to add, he is really stressed about work which was the crux of the argument. As am I. This week is difficult for both of us. Don't want to add to stress now so maybe a conversation next week would be better for us both?

It sounds like you are the one who has been scared of his anger on numerous occasions in the past (you say it has brought you to tears), and now he is deflecting any responsibility or blame by accusing you of the same.

I also suspect that his spate of therapy has just taught him how to be a happier, more well-adjusted abuser, with a therapist who validated his feelings that whenever you step out of line, you are wrong and this hurts him.

And finally, if you find yourself in a relationship where you are scratching your head wondering who is abusing who, then leave the relationship, it's no good.

Sorry - missed a few posts there.
Claiming responsibility for my own behaviour without trying to justify it via provocation sounds really sensible. And yes, I can do that.

Also yes to not arguing in front of the children. That was very bad.

He does lose his temper with other people, not just in the house or with me.

I also suspect that his spate of therapy has just taught him how to be a happier, more well-adjusted abuser, with a therapist who validated his feelings that whenever you step out of line, you are wrong and this hurts him.

Really? perhaps a more likely reality would be that the therapy has helped him to deal with past trauma such as the sexual abuse so that he can manage his anger better.

From what you've written i don't think either of you are abusive but in this case copious stress has resulted in a nasty argument where you lost control of your actions a bit and behaved in a way you shouldn't have with waving your arms around in a way that was perceived to be threatening.

Claiming responsibility for my own behaviour without trying to justify it via provocation sounds really sensible. And yes, I can do that.

You really don't sound abusive. ^That is the opposite rationale to an abuser's.

Does your husband claim responsibility for the times he shouts and upsets you, without trying to place the blame on some other person or circumstance?

Do you want to stay with this man or not? Do you love him? Your DH is going to therapy to help deal with his problems and he has a lot to deal with. I agree that it was not on to rope children in and emotionally manipulate them. You say that he provoked your anger. Well that's not an excuse men are allowed on here. In your heart of hearts do you want to save this marriage or do you want a chorus of LTB?

All couples get angry with each other, some shout too. This is not usually abusive behaviour, although specific patterns that are about controlling the other pattern are.

My guess is that the dynamic of your relationship is changing a bit since your husband has been receiving counselling. Talk about it when you are both not stressed or angry, find out specifically felt abusive from your husband's behaviour, agree some strategies between you for when you are both angry on how to resolve issues.

Reassure your children that grown-ups being angry is OK, explain it doesn't mean you don't love Dad. If they are old enough tell them that you both regret frightening them and you both made mistakes. Children learn how best to manage anger from their parents, being frightened by anger is not a useful lesson to learn.

what felt abusive from your husband's perspective not behaviour

I love my husband and want my marriage to work. He is a good husband and father.

He does accept responsibility when he upsets me. Even today he confessed that he had provoked me and that was not an acceptable way for him to manage his stress.

Thank you for the words of wisdom so far. They are really helping me get a perspective on this.

It was very shitty to ask your dc "why is mummy being so mean to me?".
That is abusive to both yourself your dc.
Look up 'gas lighting'.

sorry to post again but this is bothering me!

If someone posted on here explaining they had a difficult past with sexual abuse, which i can relate to, and said it was affecting the way they dealth with their anger and they were blowing up over small things with their DH, they'd be offered sympathy and advised to seek counselling.

Your DH has done the right thing by seeking help with a counsellor, and as he's improved he has obviously made an effort to do the right thing by his family and your relationship.

I have a similar experience with a DP with a bad past which has led to him having anger management, it doesn't mean they are abusive and the counselling does not justify abusive behaviour. We're all human, we have arguments with loved ones and say things we don't mean to in the heat of the moment.

It was wrong for him to say what he said to your DC, it was wrong for you to act in a threatening way towards him in front of your DC. If that behaviour isn't a regular occurence, and he has already apologised for how he acted i don't see anything from what you've written that suggests he is abusive and can't comprehend why one thing he did is being construed as that and one thing you have done is excused.

Surely the best outcome would be for you to both apologise to each other, speak to your DC and then take action to avoid the situation repeating itself when you're both feeling stressed!

I'm feeling at the moment that next week I'm going to sit down with him to talk about what happened. I need to accept to him that I was out of order in my behaviour. Neither of us wants the kids to see us like that again. I'll probably ask him what advice the counsellor gave him to control his anger because I don't want to repeat that ever. I think he was genuinely scared. I will also make the point that bringing the kids into an argument is a no no (I said that at the time but he said he was trying to shock me into stopping - instead it wound me up more).

Thank you ihate. You are talking a lot of sense to me. Also silver birch earlier - that resonated with me too.

A traumatic past does not excuse or justify behaviour that negatively affects others. It explains it. It does not excuse or justify it.

Our nearest and dearest are not there to absorb the shocks of our own traumas, and of our transitions.

That is what professionals are there for, so it is good that the OP's H is seeing a therapist. But OP should not have to suffer bad behaviour while her husband works through his issues.

Being compassionate is good and wise. But not being an emotional punch-bag.

I agree Goats, in a pefect world we would never let our emotions get the better of us and affect our relationships, but we are all human I'm sure most of us have had times where things have got too much and we have lashed out at our family, our partners, said things we didn't mean and lost our cool. Then we accept our behaviour was wrong, apologise and move forward - It doesn't make us abusive or our partner/family punch bags UNLESS the behaviour is continued and that person doesn't take responsibility and action to deal with it.

I cant help wondering if this counselling hasnt helped him deal with his issues, just changed how he acts because of them.

Before he would be the one screaming and shouting and hitting walls, but he cant do that anymore as he has been taught to control his anger. So instead he provokes you to the point where you flip out and he gets a second hand "hit" from your anger. Works for him too because then he can accuse you of the very behaviour he has been exhibiting for years.

I dont think he needs counselling, I think he needs in depth therapy. He is still nowhere near ok.

agreed, lego.