Help me cope with seeing narcissistic FIL

[charliebandana]

I'm meeting my narcissistic FIL next week. He's usually very charming to me, but DH recently told him that he is going v low contact with him, so he may be upset/ cross/ disbelieving. I'm seeing him so he can see our DC, my idea. DH is really worrying now as my own F has narcissistic traits and he worries that FIL will push my boundaries and be manipulative. Can anyone suggest ways to keep this meeting boundaried? What should I say if FIL asks about DH?

Can you stop having ideas, and rethink this?

Why are you not taking the lead from your husband?

DH says he wants to cancel to protect me.
Cancelling will probably make FIL very angry, it feels a big step.
I suppose I need to stop trying to 'save' DH from having to deal with his DF, I envisaged that I could give DH a much needed break from FIL without any hostility developing (he will be angry if not able to see his GC).
Also we saw him very rarely, only a couple of times a year. This suggestion to meet is very out of habit. This is what made us examine his behaviour more.

So, fil's anger is the driving force making you take your DC to see him? Sounds like you are already under his power, maybe your husband sees this and wants you out of it before you are too scared of his anger to properly protect the DC from it? Why on earth would you want the dcs to be with an angry narc?

Let him cancel.

Support your husband.

We are reconsidering what is healthy from DC's interests.
Contact was typically a couple of times a year, a seemingly pleasant few hours, he was well behaved around me and wouldn't get angry or be too difficult. This felt manageable. He was also v excited about being a GF and we hoped that he could make a (managed) positive contribution and that there might be capacity for change (related to some recent life events for him).
Since DH has started withdrawing he has been in touch more. DH said that as a child his DF would show interest in spurts e.g. be very involved with his DC for a few weeks, then seemingly lose interest for a few months. So we thought we would ride this spurt of interest.
I met him once without DH before DH officially withdrew contact and although the encounter was overtly pleasant, on reflection he was pushing boundaries and I saw his angry side briefly, something he wouldn't have done before. It is all quite subtle though. Or maybe because my father was similar I am too accepting of his behaviour and don't recognise things that a regular person would find rude/ strange.
It will be a pity if he distances us from the rest of his family as they are very nice but unlikely to want an argument with him, and unfortunately my family is complicated too, so our DC may end up growing up with little wider family.
This toxic parent/ narc stuff is new to us. Previously we just thought he was a difficult person. We are just realising that there are patterns to his behaviours.

If you go -if- ... then it's possible your FIL will start cross grilling you or holdin gyou responsible for your husband's decision.

At that point you will need to say "my husband's decision is his, there's nothing I can do to influence that. It's between you and him. I'd like a relationship with you and for you to have a relationship with your grandchildren. I do need you to accept that your son has his own mind though, and that I'm his wife and don't want to hear him badmouthed".

And if he doens't respect that, remind him once. If he carries on, say that you do not want to hear your husband badmouthed and that you'll see him again in a few months and leave.

I would actually practise saying these things. Self-possessed dignity and calmness is the only way to handle this sort of situation. Also, maybe it will help to think of FIL as a giant toddler. If he gets angry and throws tantrums, see the similarity with your own kids (only they will grow up and change; with older people who have gone down the tantrum route, it's often a matter of simply holding the boundaries becuase they will often no longer really grow as people).

Yes nunk, DH is worried as I am nervous of FIL, he said FIL May see me as the path of least resistance now that DH has withdrawn from him.

I think I have too much misplaced hope that we I can encourage FIL to change. I have given up on my own F ever changing, maybe this is related.

I think you need to make practical plans on how to deal with him when he starts getting difficult.

And as no 1 priority, to make it clear your loyalty is to your husband.

Also - how is he with the kids?

Charlie

Bad, bad, bad idea.

You have NO idea what you are up against when it comes to FIL; you absolutely do not. Apart from anything else such disordered people make for being deplorably bad grandparent figures.

Cancelling this meeting is the best idea, it really is.

It is NOT possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist and the very worst thing you can do is let this man meet your children; your most precious resource. Its a terrible idea that he is meeting your children and that needs a total rethink on your part. He will not behave better around them and your DH is low contact (will probably end up going no contact with him) for very good reason.

Narcissists tend to under value or over value the "relationship" they have with their grandchildren. Infact it is painful watching a narcissist interact with their grandchild primarily because there is no interaction. It is like watching a re-run of a tv show you have always hated.

They are also the masters of "come closer so I can hurt you again". And he will hurt you all given any opportunity.

Narcissists are not toddlers in terms of emotional development; also toddlers grow up. Your FIL's emotional development stopped around the age of six.

Your children will truly benefit from being around people who are emotionally functioning healthily. Quality not quantity matters here when it comes to family members.

I was not at all surprised to see that your own father is of a similar nature to your FIL. You've become conditioned to this from him and such people completely disregard boundaries.

Do not go to this meeting; I cannot stress that enough. No good will come of it.

Narcissists dont change. Isn't that the point? They are narcissists!

I think I have too much misplaced hope that we I can encourage FIL to change. I have given up on my own F ever changing, maybe this is related.

I think you've hit the nail on the head yourself here. It is very hard not to have much in the way of extended family, I know from experience, and it's understandable you wanting to salvage something that you want to see as being possibly manageable.

But I think you already know that it's not really going to work. You have to ask what benefit it will be to your DC to have a relationship with him. If they are going to end up walking on eggshells around him, being the target of his anger and so on, it doesn't bode well, not to mention the strain on your DH and you and how that will then also impact on them.

You say you "thought you'd ride this spurt of interest" but think about what message that would send to your DC. It's OK for someone who supposedly loves them to pick them up like a new toy for a while, but then drop them again as soon as he gets bored. What would they learn about relationships from that, what would they "learn" about themselves from that?

If your main reason for not cancelling is that you fear his anger if you do, that tells you everything you need to know, really. No doubt your DH grew up in fear of his anger, and he wants to protect himself from it now: I think supporting him on this and protecting your DC from the same should be a priority.

A strong, loving family unit of your own is ultimately more important and better for all of you than a semblance of an extended family that is actually toxic and spirit crushing. Of course in an ideal world you would want a loving extended family as well... but where exactly is that ideal world? I certainly haven't found it!

If he is a Narcssist then he is not a good grandparent, it's not possible.
Either he will use the Children to get to your DH or he will do the " ooh look I'm a fun GP" if it suits hm but turn on them when they don't behave in the way he wants.
My father was a narc and it was only when I was pg that I went nc with him - I would Never expose my DC to that.
Ask yourself why you are doing this - do you think you can fix him when you couldn't fix your own father?

Can anyone recommend some reading for DH about this?
He is interested in identifying dysfunctional behaviour and figuring out what is best for our family.

If I were your husband , I would consider what you are doing a massive betrayal. I'm not sure I'd forgive you for it.

I think you need to examine your motives for going against your husband and exposing your dcs to fil.

Charlie

Are you still planning on meeting FIL?. I sincerely hope not.

I would also suggest you do reading around this subject as well as your DH.

"Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown may be of some benefit. Toxic Parents written by Susan Forward is another (that could be helpful to you as well).

REALLLY bad idea.

(a) This is your husband's father, not yours.
(b) Your husband wants to go NC with him, or at least reduce contact. You should support him in this. What you are doing is undermining him and make him doubt himself.
(c) If your FIL is narcissistic, he's going to hurt your children, one way or the other. They should not be offered up to your FIL to keep him appeased.

If you have a normal family, it can be really hard to get your head around how toxic bad parents can be, so you try to build bridges, play nice, etc. in the hope that all will be well. It won't.

So please, please, follow your husband's lead here and support him. He must be feeling awful right now.

It's not a 'massive betrayal' because we made a plan together for DC and I to see him without DH. DH wanted him to have contact with DC still. DH just needed a break to think clearly about things. DH was pleased that I offered to do this. With the benefit of some time thinking about the situation, DH now feels it is ill advised for me to meet him. I am someone who avoids confrontation, but after talking it over with DH I agree with him. Thanks for all the advice. We are cancelling our upcoming meeting and will spend some time thinking together about what is in the best interests of our DC.

Oh I see where the confusion comes in my first post.
I suggested to DH that I could continue contact whilst he had a break if that is what he wanted. He thought that was a good idea and kind of me. Then when the pushing boundaries started he started to worry about whether I could handle it. Anyway DH has phoned FIL and said we will all have a break from him. FIL was angry. It is better that we are united as a small family, we see that now. We will do some reflecting to figure out what is best in future.

Yes, that is a different picture! Good you've decided to cancel. Good luck for the future.

charliebandana,

Am so glad you have decided to cancel this; no good would have come of it anyway. These people cannot do boundaries and rail actively against same. This is a result of the narcissist viewing people as mere objects and for them to serve their needs and desires.

Re your comment that I have separated out:-
"I suggested to DH that I could continue contact whilst he had a break if that is what he wanted".

Mistake Number 1. Whilst nice in theory this would not have worked in practice. You do not like confrontation either, people like FIL like nothing more than a fight and or the last word.

"He thought that was a good idea and kind of me. Then when the pushing boundaries started he started to worry about whether I could handle it".

As mentioned already, narcissists cannot respect boundaries at all. He was wise to worry about you.

"Anyway DH has phoned FIL and said we will all have a break from him".

A very wise decision there from DH.

FIL will do emotional harm to your children and in front of your very eyes too if they are allowed any access to him. Some people really do not deserve any access to their grandchildren, FIL is a case in point.

Both of you need to read more around the subject of NPD. It is NOT your fault FIL is like this; his own family of origin did that to him.