Mother....need some perspective

[Whitetara]

My mother and I have had a difficult relationship for as long as I can remember, and only recently after a counsellor suggested narcissism I also started reading about bpd. A lot of what I read make sense and explained her weird responses to situations.

There is a long history to this but much of the difficulty is with her making everything all about her and of her presuming to know what people are thinking and feeling. I spent my childhood and adolescence being told " don't be angry" or. " I know what you are thinking" followed by telling me what I am thinking. It led to me feeling controlled and that I had nowhere to hide as even my thoughts belonged to her. There are many many incidents over the years which I won't go into.

After one particular one I have realised that she is expert at being the (my) victim and labelling me as difficult.
I am 35 weeks pregnant with our third child. Before my father
died he has spent a long time tracing his family tree and as I am very proud of his Jewish roots and myself identify with that side we felt it would be nice to look through the trees to find inspiration for names.

The thing is we live. 7 hour trip away and so I asked if my mother could send me them and why, providing they weren't in a very hard to reach place. She told me that she did not know where they were and that it would be too much trouble to look.

I thought fair enough if they are impossible to reach, but in my last email to her just asked if she could at least look in some more easy to reach places. (I mention at this point that I emailed my brother twice to ask for his assistance as he is nearer and could maybe look in the more difficult places and also a text. He responded to neither).
The email from her I got back said that they are in two places and that knowing my father he would not want me looking at the family tree for names as he did not get on with his mothers side. She said sorry to put it that way but that I am pushing it and have put her in a difficult position.

I don't think I have put her in a difficult position, I have made a reasonable request and it means a lot to me to see them. She is putting my fathers imagined thoughts on a subject that was never discussed with him above my actual feelings. If I were to challenge her on this I would be labelled difficult and she would become upset, withdraw and it would then become all about her feelings. Also it is my family as well and I don't think they would have the right to forbid me resources.

All I'd like is to see them. If for practical or logistical reasons this isn't possible then iaccept it, but it seems she knows where they are but does not want to let me have them.i feel controlled and manipulated and don't know what to do as whatever I do will just backfire and end in me being 'a bully' or difficult or whatever. It's just a simple request but it's already been made into something far bigger. Why does this always happen and what can I do. I'm so so upset.

'For goodness sakes mother - just fucking send them and stop playing the victim all the fucking time.'

It sounds like she has a long history of controlling behaviour, and this is just the latest example.

What can you do - you can only change the way you respond to her behaviour, you can't make her into a decent mother. It's a shame that your brother seems to be operating under her command, too.

In terms of naming your baby, I think you'll have to pick something that suits you and your husband, and give up on the idea of using the family tree for now. You could perhaps pick something traditionally Jewish such as Isaac or Ruth? There are also a lot of other, more unusual, beautiful Hebrew names.

Are you still in counselling?

You're mother sounds a lot like mine, a complete PITA . This is typical Narc behaviour, she's probably delighted as she knows this will be annoying you and that's what she wants. Unfortunately, in my experience, you just can't win. I'm sorry op but you're just playing into her hand by asking. I know it's not what you want to hear but just leave it and move on for the sake of your own sanity. Is there any other way if getting the info you're dad collected? Maybe census records or family tree websites?

OP sorry just wanted to say, I hope my post doesn't seem harsh. I've cried many tears over my relationship or lack of with my mother and I have very limited contact with her now. It helps that she lives in a different country! But with narc mothers you have to protect yourself as given the power and the chance they can break you.

It's easier said than done, I know.

Good luck.

Sorry you are going through this.

I would consider circumventing your Mum entirely and doing the research yourself. These days it's actually quiet easy because of all the websites that are around that do this. I've gone back several generations in my family in the space of a few hours on an evening. You should be able to come up with a few possible names before your baby is born.

You will probably find that there are already people online who have fairly large portions of your family tree, distant cousins and so forth and they will probably be more then happy to share the information with you.

There are also friendly people on the website RootsChat who can advise on everything to do with your family tree and will even help you make searches and so on.

Forget your Mum and go have fun online!

"Why does this always happen "

I would say it happens because your expectations are too high and because you handed her a little bit of power which she exploited. In this particular situation you're asking a favour from her and you said it was important to you. This automatically puts her in control whether to grant the favour or not. If she's a difficult woman that likes making trouble and wielding power over others, guess which one she'll go for?

You have to bypass people like this. Not 'no contact' necessarily but you can only give them a minor role in your life. They can't be trusted or relied upon so never give them anything that they can use against you. Never ask a favour or an opinion, don't share personal information or admit you have a problem. You exchange pleasantries and you keep everything else to yourself. What you end up with is a pretty two-dimensional relationship (and it's a pity when it's your own mother), but that's as much as you can risk.

She just does not want you to have these documents at all precisely because you need them. Your mother's behaviour is very narcissistic in nature and she will not change.

I would also circumvent your mother and research your late father's family tree yourself (there is a mass of online materials and resources re family trees) or employ the services of a genealogist.

This website is one of many examples for Jewish family history www.jewishgen.org/

Yes - there's no 'difficult position' for her. I'm sorry to be so stark but - your father is dead so it's down to her relationship with you.

(Except, just possibly, how was she with your father? I'm wondering whether he spent long periods of time 'researching' partly to have something of his own which wasn't hers and whether she might deep down also resent the information collection for that reason.)

In any case, she's trying to control you through this means because you've told her that it's important to you so it gives her power. I'd just quietly opt out of the situation and - if you wish - start off the family history anew for your own family. It's probably much easier these days than when your father did it what with internet ancestry sites etc.

It's a shame that your brother hasn't responded to you but who knows but that he's having his own struggles with her and doesn't want to get involved. (And doesn't know how to go about discussing it.) I doubt it's only you who has been affected by her.

Thank you for your responses. It's good to know it's not just me. Alternative, I'd love to say that and did draft an email with my truth on it. Sent it to dh as wouldn't dare send to her, but it was cathartic. And she wonders why I don't share things with her.
I'm no longer in counselling but it helped me see a few things. We have looked at Hebrew names but nothing is quite hitting the spot.
Birdie you're not being harsh, she probably is enjoying it, but would never admit that. I'm sorry you have gone through similar. It's tough isn't it. I wish I could just have a normal straight forward relationship.

I like the idea of doing my own research and that feels empowering and exciting.

My father spent many long hours painstakingly doing it but maybe resources have improved since the mid nineties when he started.

I do usually keep the relationship one dimensional but occasionally try to be 'normal' With her, sort of giving her a chance to be that person but it always fails and this happens. I'd hoped she might have acknowledged the event and been more helpful.

Thank you for the genealogy links atilla.

I'm not sure if I should respond back to her email. I don't want her to think that she has won but if she asks, do I say I don't buy the "knowing my dads unexpressed opinions" part and tell her I don't think she (or he) has the right to withhold and that its my family too.
?

The alternative to that is no response or the yes that's fine answer and she gets away with it....the whole thing is making me feel angry and confrontational ( not that I could ever display any form of anger or get the total dead eyes withdrawal, walk out and go for a cry routine followed by how hurt she is and how I am bullying her). Sorry I'm rambling and also at the end do my tether after all these years watching the patterns with each time the same . No one else in the family seems to have noticed either...

You could light one last blue touch paper and watch what's left of your relationship explode into a million pieces :) Why not express your anger? I'd personally condense it down to a sort of 'pity you couldn't be more cooperative you malignant old bat' (I paraphrase) anticipating an 'I'm so hurt' response in return, which you then ignore of course because you're moving into the next phase of the one dimensional relationship NEVER attempting normality again.

I may be in a minority but I wouldn't respond to her - in fact I likely wouldn't respond to her again. I think that the sooner you start off on your own journey the better (you said that you liked the idea of doing things for yourself?) and that continuing any discussion with her would bring you down and give her further opportunity for muscling in on you. That's just my instinctive feeling though.

Actually... there is a lot of power to be found in 'walking away'. Don't engage any further. Do your own family research (she doesn't get to be the gatekeeper here).

I don't think there should be any continuation of discussion. Whatever the response it's got to be final. Say what needs saying rather than sinking into impotent rage..... and then cut the cable.

I agree with pp, don't engage and don't respond, this is what narcs hate - to be ignored, it's a killer for them. In the past I used to get these 'pity me' texts from my mother. She thinks she's a wonderful person but everyone around her is wrong. It's so tempting to send her back a few home truths, but the reality is, that by doing that I'm adding fuel to her fire and giving her the opportunity to talk about her favourite topic - herself!

It has taken me years to learn this but it's the only way to deal with her. Now her texts are mainly just general enquiries about my dd etc. And I send back a jolly reply, keeping it all very light and happy.

Good luck OP, you're not alone.

I'd be tempted to reply, "Don't worry mum, i've decided it will be a fantastic project for me to do my own research. It will make me feel so close to dad and to be able to retrace the steps he has taken to look into this valuable family history. Thank you for giving me this opportunity, i'll enjoy these weeks preparing for new baby being born and feel like dad is helping me in some way"

Then just sit back and smile, she hasn't won and no dramatic confrontation. Yes a bit passive aggressive but hey ho, sometimes it works.

Thank you. I think I'll look at what is out there and I can do myself.

the difficult thing with the no response thing is I won't to this email but am tempted to just not feed into it as someone said (sorry not to refer direct, I can't type my answers and read back at posts at the same time), but what about Mother's Day? After this episode I hardly feel like sending a warm cuddly card, but won't get away with not sending one iykwim. It feels so fake. My whole relationship with her feels fake.

Also , I will have to have her to stay after the baby is born, but I'm really not looking forward to that. I can't see a way out of that either.

I very nearly went nc with her years ago, but then children came and I didn't feel I could withhold from her/them. As it is the children don't engage with her very well, not like they do with dh's warm family and she gets huffy with them for not being that warm towards her. I don't want to influence their opinion of her and would rather they come up with their own conclusions, but at the same time she is very shrewd and manipulative.

I think this is the final nail in the coffin and will most definitely from now on do the minimal stuff, someone further up suggested like not asking opinions, showing any need etc. what I do find hard is when she says sulkily "well you don't want me doing x...do you" or " I would offer to x but you wouldn't want me to". If I say no I wouldn't she's got my number and knows what I'm thinking or if I say no that's wrong it comes out as a weak bleat.

Jeez I can't even look the woman directly in the eye. It feels too intrusive and piercing. Dh says the same. Does anyone else get this? It gives her the power if I can't meet her dominant gaze, it feels so...uncomfortable.

Mummy, I am now tempted to drop something like that into conversation. It's a good idea.

...but won't get away with not sending one iykwim....

... If I say no I wouldn't she's got my number and knows what I'm thinking or if I say no that's wrong......

Why do you have to? (You don't have to do anything with her if you don't want to, particularly if she's going to have you wound into a little knot every time.)

Can you find the most bland, least gushy card possible and write something like, "I hope you have the mothers day you truly deserve". Again avoids confrontation but you haven't lay down and let her walk all over you.

As for inviting her to stay after baby is born, how about something like, "after everything you've done for us so far it would be far to much to ask more from you than a visit (short), you've done so much already". Take the same approach with all of the passive aggressive crap. Play her at her own game,

"I would offer to x but you wouldn't want me to"

"Well of course not, you do so much for everybody around you, I wouldn't dream of asking more"

Don't over explain, don't keep talking. Just sit back and smile enigmatically. It's a good way of dis-engaging but refusing to deal with their drama and controlling behavior.

I had a similar relationship with my sister, it caused sooo many problems before I learnt how to play her at her own game. She refused to attend my wedding because she couldn't get the hotel room she wanted at the venue. I sent her a note saying i completely understood her decision and she should never compromise her standards for anybody. The wedding wouldn't be the same without her and we'd make the best of it. Soon got a reply saying she'd be there, she'd never miss out.

I need some smart answers like that. But I need to commit them to memory as I go a bit blank when she has one of her digs at me.

On the other hand I've had a somewhat productive evening and have traced my paternal grandfathers family up to my great great grand parents including my grandfathers 11.siblings. There's also a name which occurs a few times and which is a name I already like so that may be my starting point. I feel so much better after doing that.

Well done.

And you don't actually need her ?

Well it would have been nice to see the entire lot which I believe is plentiful, and would have been a rich resource, but it's much better than nothing and I can show her that I will do as I please and I don't need her permission.

Well done, see in her own little way she's helped . Just practise by thinking of really good PA answers to some of the stuff she's said in the past. Post some here, we'll help. I actually enjoy PA tennis now, probably because I can see that's what it is whilst sister thinks I'm finally getting her.

..... I actually enjoy PA tennis now, probably because I can see that's what it is whilst sister thinks I'm finally getting her.....

I'd have to differ on that one. I believe that if a relationship is so bad that one thinks in those terms, it's not worth continuing with in any form. It's wonderfully liberating and cleansing to simply drop bad things out of your life - and I include people in that.

Different strokes I guess.